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I have.

It can help. For me, it doesn't come even close to being as effective as being in the right ambient position.

But comromises always are just that. It is better than having nothing.

I would get a basic calibration mic, like the Behringer cheapie. It needs to be an omni with really flat response (but probably doesn't need to be a lab standerd calibration mic...)

[Tom Young]

"Has anyone in a poor mixing position just suspended an ambient mic in the ideal position and used it to monitor the mix (through headphones)?"

This will not work.

First; the mic will be in a non representative position (above peoples' heads).

Second; it would have to be an expensive, flat microphone so that it does not color the sound.

Third; the headphones have to be flat. Almost all headphones are not.

Fourth; we hear with two ears and even a carefully implemented binaural microphone system which feeds into a binaural headphone system does not replicate how we hear completely.

Fifth; one cannot mix live sound with headphones on. Despite the impression folks might have that there is some benefit to this, it cannot help but isolate the sound mixer from the acoustic environment. We can use these devices to solo inputs (briefly, and to hear noise or leakage) but even in this case the signal integrity is not near 100%.

All attempts at making up for bad mixig positions, which normally entail carefully aligned and equalized nearfield ldspkrs or headphones, are bandaid attempts that ultimately fail.  How we hear in an acoustic environment is different than what we hear when we place a microphone in this environment, feed it to headphones or nearfields and then monitor that.

[Tom Young]

The Behringer measuremnt mic, and others, do not have even frequency and phase response either and both on and off axis.

It is not until you get into the $800.+ range (Earthworks, B&K, a few others) that the mic does not color the sound in some fashion.

[Phillip Graham]

brent nowlan wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 23:56

my church is under renonvations and there planning on moving the sound booth to the back center of the santuary, but there making a balcony just for the audio and video stuff. I was wondering if anyone knows of any good experiences that come from being above everyone (16 ft possibibly) and mixing, and i want to hear the bad too, of course...I feel that it might be a bad idea, they havent started anything and wont for ahile so i can still have a say.  Is being at ground level the way to go?

The church I have recently started attending has a good mix position.  This photo of the room is old, but it does give a good sense of where FOH is:



FOH is a recessed region in the center of the main floor, not shadowed by the back wall or the balcony.  FOH pit is large, with enough enough room for an Innovason Sy80, full outboard rack, full light control rig, and stage manager position.

Because the floor is sloped, the people in the seats behind FOH have a clear view of the stage area.

For a lot more money you could also have added a pathway to Stage/video world that wouldn't have involved walking on the main audience floor  

[Harry Frankenfeld]

We just moved into our own facility, after 13 years as a mobile church. I've mixed from crows' nest positions in the back of a balcony, the front edge of a balcony centered and off-center, as well as in the middle, and have to say that the new booth location (which is pretty-well described by Tom Young's post at the beginning of the thread) is excellent.

I'm in the back corner of the wall, but the booth is wide enough that my actual mix position is about halfway across the right seating area - the room seats ~ 500, in two sections. The booth is raised 18", so I can see, but I"m not high enough to take me out of the space. Plus, I can hear not only the mix in the room, but how the congregation is reacting to the mix, and go with it. If they seem to be pulling back, I can pull back with them, but if they are ready to blow the doors off, I can go there as well.

This is the first time in 11 years - since we moved beyond the casual 50-people-in-a-room - that I've felt a part of the service as a member of the congregation, instead of just a technical worker, getting the job done.

I've posted a few photos of the room at my flickr account: http://flickr.com/photos/captainbonehead/- I need to update since we've moved in.

Hope that helps!

Harry Frankenfeld
Grace Community Church, Nashville

[David Stagl]

Harry Frankenfeld wrote on Tue, 08 November 2005 12:30

This is the first time in 11 years - since we moved beyond the casual 50-people-in-a-room - that I've felt a part of the service as a member of the congregation, instead of just a technical worker, getting the job done.

That was something I noticed as well when we moved down out of the loft.  I suppose you could debate the merits of this; I personally prefer not only being down to feel out the congregation a bit, but also because I actually feel like a part of the church again.

I was looking at your photos.  Looks like you're right up against the wall.  Our west campus has the mix position right up against the wall as well.  You just need to keep in mind that there's a lot of bass buildup there.  For me, that's probably a good thing because I like lots of bottom, and that way I don't drown the congregation in it.  

Dave

[Ivan Beaver]

Were you aware that next week we are installing 4 Danley Sound Labs TH115's as subs there?  I will also be doing a complete system realignment towards the end of the week.

[Phillip Graham]

Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 08 November 2005 21:49

Were you aware that next week we are installing 4 Danley Sound Labs TH115's as subs there?  I will also be doing a complete system realignment towards the end of the week.

Yeah Ivan,

I am aware of that.  I met with Kent and Todd last week to see where I am going to fit into things audio-wise.  I am booked with my thesis proposal till middle of december, and we are going to move forward about that time.

I know they are wanting to add a couple more boxes to the L/R hangs, I think Kent mentioned that fiddling with F-chart said 2-3 more/side, and reverting back to "real" line array processing.  Are you doing the L/R hang upgrades too?

Kent said I was welcome to come up, but time doesn't allow it.  Tell him I said hello.  They are definitely doing a good job of letting me get involved there.

On a minorly related note when might be a good time to get up your way to check out the SH50, et al.  I've been meaning to do that/meet Tom/Dr. P.  Let me know.  Sorry I missed the smaart class, school again...

[Ivan Beaver]

I did a site visit today and there was no mention of doing anything to the main system EXCEPT the very first thing we are going to do is to secure the frame above the ceiling for the center cluster.  Both me and my project manager are scared by that thing!  I hope it doesn't fall this week.  After securing, we will drop the center cluster and procede with the installation.  I am going to do before and after measurements of the room.

[Phillip Graham]

Ivan Beaver wrote on Wed, 09 November 2005 20:10

I did a site visit today and there was no mention of doing anything to the main system EXCEPT the very first thing we are going to do is to secure the frame above the ceiling for the center cluster.  Both me and my project manager are scared by that thing!  I hope it doesn't fall this week.  After securing, we will drop the center cluster and procede with the installation.  I am going to do before and after measurements of the room.

Hey Ivan,

I guess their stuff for the L/R clusters is further down the road.  That's what I get for relaying something second hand.

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