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[Mike Lowe]

Hi folks,

I've been a drummer/hand percussionist/bassist forever. Recently the rock and soul cover band that I'm part of decided to up their game considerably regarding lighting. Wanting move beyond just the 4 Bars that we use, the singer picked up a bunch of Chauvet products. He bought an Intimidator Wave IRC, six Intimidator 100 moving head lights, a couple of Geysers, two Circus lights and an ADJ Starburst mirror ball effect.

The only controller that he has is a Chauvet Obey 40 which clearly was not up to the task.

I've decided to pick up a better controller and I'm leaning toward an Elation Show Designer 2 CF. It seems like it will do what we need.

This means that I'll be diving into DMX programing for the first time. I belong to drummer and bassist forums and know that a good forum can help quite a bit.

I searched lighting forums and landed here. Thank you all in advance for putting up with my newbie questions which are sure to follow.

I'm Mike from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

[duane massey]

SD 2 is an excellent controller. The learning curve is not simple, but well worth the effort. I have installed and programmed a lot of these over the years (currently reprogramming a system at an event hall that added a bunch of fixtures).
As with any controller/system, you HAVE to invest a fair amount of time programming the system. If you want some help/tips, feel free to contact me.

[Mike Lowe]

SD 2 is an excellent controller. The learning curve is not simple, but well worth the effort. I have installed and programmed a lot of these over the years (currently reprogramming a system at an event hall that added a bunch of fixtures).
As with any controller/system, you HAVE to invest a fair amount of time programming the system. If you want some help/tips, feel free to contact me.

Thank you Duane. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't completely on the wrong track. I'll likely be ordering it in the next week or so. I want to know how much I owe on taxes before I spend the money.

I will mostly be reading on this forum as I figure out this new world. Thank you for the generous offer, I'll like be sending you a PM or two as I soon as I get it.

[duane massey]

There is one on eBay right now for $800.00

[Terry Martin]

SD2 is quite powerful in its price range.    As Duane said, learning curve can be steep - but it's worth the effort and really no other console (again in its price range) that competes with it.

[Mike Lowe]

I'm sure that I'll have some frustrating moments while I'm figuring out DMX, it's like learning a new language or instrument in a way. I would rather buy a serious controller now and not have to repeat this learning curve again.

I've been spending a good bit of time reading this forum for the past several days. So far I've learned that I need to pick up DMX cables and DMX terminators to make this work reliably.

I appreciate the ebay suggestion for a used controller. A very close friend is a Guitar Center manager, he gave me a good price on a new Elation SD2. It looks like I will be ordering it in a few days.

Thanks again for the advice and encouragement, I'm really looking forward to my digital lighting education.

[Mark Cadwallader]

I too decided that the SD2 was the best value in a hardware-based controller for multi-channel LED fixtures, especially high-channel count movers with pixel mapping.  Find an older keyboard to plug in to do your typing for the SD2.

[Mike Lowe]

I ordered the SD-2 CF today, got a great price. It is not in stock, it should ship on April 27, which will be fine. We have a big show in June, I'm looking to have it programed and fully functional by then.

I too decided that the SD2 was the best value in a hardware-based controller for multi-channel LED fixtures, especially high-channel count movers with pixel mapping.  Find an older keyboard to plug in to do your typing for the SD2.

I looked up the specs on the Elation operator's manual. The unit supports a PS2 keyboard. I found an HP PS2 keyboard new in the box on eBay  for $9 including shipping. It will be here before the Elation.

Thanks for the help!

[Marc Paolella]

I am debating Show Designer 2 or Martin M2PC. The Martin is a little bit higher in price, but it seems to do more and there seems to be aggressive current development on the part of Martin. I get the feeling Show Designer is not getting much attention at all from Elation and I don't get the feeling they are serious about improving it or releasing an upgrade. I don't know any of this for a fact, just that there is little current buzz for the SD2, while the M2PC platform seems vibrant with newer hardware coming out and support for more connectivity.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I am debating Show Designer 2 or Martin M2PC. The Martin is a little bit higher in price, but it seems to do more and there seems to be aggressive current development on the part of Martin. I get the feeling Show Designer is not getting much attention at all from Elation and I don't get the feeling they are serious about improving it or releasing an upgrade. I don't know any of this for a fact, just that there is little current buzz for the SD2, while the M2PC platform seems vibrant with newer hardware coming out and support for more connectivity.

You need to change your username to your full real name per forum rules.

The Show Designer and Martin series are completely different products.  There's a learning curve to the Martin, but it's a full-featured touring-capable lighting desk, including pixel mapping.  The Show Designer does about 3% of what Martin software can do.  That may or may not be a disadvantage, depending on what you're trying to do.

On the lower-price end of things, Martin M-Touch is what you want, along with a touch-screen laptop, rather than the M2PC.

[duane massey]

SD2 has not been updated in quite a while, and the SD3 was discontinued when Elation acquired the Hedgehog. SD2 is a unique stand-alone controller that is very powerful and far ahead of anything else in it's price range.
The M2PC is quite a bit more expensive, and is certainly approaching the realm of "big boy" consoles.
All depends upon your needs/abilities. Personally prefer the footprint of the SD2 (48 scenes active at one time x 99 pages), but I'm an old-school guy who likes that approach. I'm also not a big fan of Light Jockey software, but (again) that's a personal choice.

[Marc Paolella]

You need to change your username to your full real name per forum rules.

The Show Designer and Martin series are completely different products.  There's a learning curve to the Martin, but it's a full-featured touring-capable lighting desk, including pixel mapping.  The Show Designer does about 3% of what Martin software can do.  That may or may not be a disadvantage, depending on what you're trying to do.

On the lower-price end of things, Martin M-Touch is what you want, along with a touch-screen laptop, rather than the M2PC.

Thanks. Name changed. I didn't realize that was a rule.

Thank you for this evaluation. This sort of tells me which way to go. If I am going to spend $1,500 on SD2, and I can get the M2PC for $3,000+/- which is a)more capable, b)able to handle professional fixtures, and c)more relevant to the current standards of the profession and more updated and growing, then I will spring for the more expensive solution. I am an amateur newbie, but I always like to be working with professional products. I don't mind complexity and learning curves, as learning is most of the fun in doing anything. Heck, I chose Avid Media Composer as my first video editor, so that tells you how dysfunctional I am. And the new fixtures that keep showing up every year seem to grow in capability and complexity. So I want a lighting controller/software package that won't have a problem dealing with that in the future. Martin also seems to be solicitous of newcomers by making it relatively cheap to get started in this most interesting activity.

SD2 does look cool though. I might look for a used one for $800 or so. Can't be a bad idea to learn both of them.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Thanks. Name changed. I didn't realize that was a rule.

Thank you for this evaluation. This sort of tells me which way to go. If I am going to spend $1,500 on SD2, and I can get the M2PC for $3,000+/- which is a)more capable, b)able to handle professional fixtures, and c)more relevant to the current standards of the profession and more updated and growing, then I will spring for the more expensive solution. I am an amateur newbie, but I always like to be working with professional products. I don't mind complexity and learning curves, as learning is most of the fun in doing anything. Heck, I chose Avid Media Composer as my first video editor, so that tells you how dysfunctional I am. And the new fixtures that keep showing up every year seem to grow in capability and complexity. So I want a lighting controller/software package that won't have a problem dealing with that in the future. Martin also seems to be solicitous of newcomers by making it relatively cheap to get started in this most interesting activity.

SD2 does look cool though. I might look for a used one for $800 or so. Can't be a bad idea to learn both of them.

To Duane - M-PC != Light Jockey. If you haven't taken a look recently, you should. Make sure you are using a touch screen to eval - the software was intended for touch.

Marc, according to the Martin rep I've spoken to, the M2 series is actually older and less desirable than a touch screen PC with an M-Touch. A M-Touch setup should be ~$1500 including a new touchscreen laptop.

[Marc Paolella]

To Duane - M-PC != Light Jockey. If you haven't taken a look recently, you should. Make sure you are using a touch screen to eval - the software was intended for touch.

Marc, according to the Martin rep I've spoken to, the M2 series is actually older and less desirable than a touch screen PC with an M-Touch. A M-Touch setup should be ~$1500 including a new touchscreen laptop.

Excellent info. I kind of thought the M-Touch was intended more as an extension to an M2PC or M2GO. But if it's able to effectively coordinate with the software all by itself, then that might be a heck of a way to go, and for far less money.

[Marc Paolella]

Excellent info. I kind of thought the M-Touch was intended more as an extension to an M2PC or M2GO. But if it's able to effectively coordinate with the software all by itself, then that might be a heck of a way to go, and for far less money.

Wow, just did some research. What a cool damned thing. I'm going to get one of these and see how it works. The "faders" are touch sensitive! It seems like something that you can "play" as much as something you can program. Good looking too! For $469, I'm in. I wonder how it would work with a nice high resolution Microsoft Surface 4. Or perhaps a larger Dell Inspiron 17 inch would work better.

Here are some mini-reviews that clarify some aspects of this neat piece of gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9t_AVKacg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sPXtCliMjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgWv_-Uk6sM

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Wow, just did some research. What a cool damned thing. I'm going to get one of these and see how it works. The "faders" are touch sensitive! It seems like something that you can "play" as much as something you can program. Good looking too! For $469, I'm in. I wonder how it would work with a nice high resolution Microsoft Surface 4. Or perhaps a larger Dell Inspiron 17 inch would work better.

Here are some mini-reviews that clarify some aspects of this neat piece of gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9t_AVKacg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sPXtCliMjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgWv_-Uk6sM

I have a Surface Pro 1 and I find it a little small. The Surface Pro 3 and 4 are slightly larger, which would help. Bigger would also be good as the software layout is customizable.  I was looking at the larger HP Spectre 360 which is 15".

[Marc Paolella]

I have a Surface Pro 1 and I find it a little small. The Surface Pro 3 and 4 are slightly larger, which would help. Bigger would also be good as the software layout is customizable.  I was looking at the larger HP Spectre 360 which is 15".

The Spectre looks pretty hot, 15.6" at 1920x1080 seems like a good balance of resolution and screen size. I would probably upgrade it to the core i7 which would bump up the price. The only other task would be removing the bloatware that HP loves to stuff on all their computers.

I love the concept of the Surface, but if you look online, there are so many complaints about stability, it gives one serious pause.

[Scott Holtzman]

The Spectre looks pretty hot, 15.6" at 1920x1080 seems like a good balance of resolution and screen size. I would probably upgrade it to the core i7 which would bump up the price. The only other task would be removing the bloatware that HP loves to stuff on all their computers.

I love the concept of the Surface, but if you look online, there are so many complaints about stability, it gives one serious pause.

I have a Lenovo Yoga with an i7.  It is a touchscreen laptop with an articulating hinge that allows you to fold the keyboard back and use it as a tablet.

At first I was excited, it's small enough to replace the Samsung tablet I keep on my table in the media room.  However after awhile the shine came off.  Windows 10 is slick but the tablet only mode just isn't an Android or an Apple.  It's also as pointed out not quite as stable as I would hope though that has improved with every weekly update.  The Windows store apps are really lagging behind their Android and Apple counterparts, especially Tapatalk so I still have the Yoga and the table.

The Yoga is the nicest small laptop I have ever owned, but the touchscreen is just a curiosity.  Occasionally using touch screen instead of touchpad gets me where I need (like zooming and panning on a picture).

The one device dream is still a long way away.  You need a lot of tools to get the job done still.  I have a desktop with a 4k display and a bunch of other screens at the office and home, a Macbook for recording and other audio apps, the Yoga, an iPad mini, three Android tablets and an old Core 2 Duo running XP for some legacy apps on older equipment.  That's a lot of gear for one guy.

My guys are all over the board.  I think your computing devices are as personal a choice as your socks.

[Marc Paolella]

I have a Lenovo Yoga with an i7.  It is a touchscreen laptop with an articulating hinge that allows you to fold the keyboard back and use it as a tablet.

At first I was excited, it's small enough to replace the Samsung tablet I keep on my table in the media room.  However after awhile the shine came off.  Windows 10 is slick but the tablet only mode just isn't an Android or an Apple.  It's also as pointed out not quite as stable as I would hope though that has improved with every weekly update.  The Windows store apps are really lagging behind their Android and Apple counterparts, especially Tapatalk so I still have the Yoga and the table.

The Yoga is the nicest small laptop I have ever owned, but the touchscreen is just a curiosity.  Occasionally using touch screen instead of touchpad gets me where I need (like zooming and panning on a picture).

The one device dream is still a long way away.  You need a lot of tools to get the job done still.  I have a desktop with a 4k display and a bunch of other screens at the office and home, a Macbook for recording and other audio apps, the Yoga, an iPad mini, three Android tablets and an old Core 2 Duo running XP for some legacy apps on older equipment.  That's a lot of gear for one guy.

My guys are all over the board.  I think your computing devices are as personal a choice as your socks.

All very true. I am running a 3 display system with a 4K LG31MU97 at 4096x2160 in the middle and 30 inch 2560x1600 displays on either side. MIDI keyboards all over the place, DMXIS hanging out of a USB port, Maschine Studio and S61 controller, Presonus 24AI mixer, MBox Pro, you name it. Stability is very so-so. As of tonight, my hard disk has some corrupt files that cannot be removed or repaired. Fortunately the damned thing runs, but it does crash periodically. My latest experiment has been trying to get the Maschine Studio to trigger songs and associated programmed light cues by hitting a pad. I think it can be done but it will involve some creative improvisation.

For this lighting laptop I am thinking of installing only lighting-specific software, nothing else. No Creative Cloud, no MS Office, no ProTools, no Avid, no Internet Explorer, no nothing. I want the thing to run as stable as humanly possible and I'm not sure any Windows 10 system with a plethora of audio and video drivers is capable of being crash proof at this point. I already have a laptop for computing, I envision that this laptop is basically going to be a Martin M-PC lighting server and not much of anything else. I want stability, but I fear it is an impossible dream, a fool's errand. But I never stop trying though, do I? No, I don't.

[Scott Holtzman]

All very true. I am running a 3 display system with a 4K LG31MU97 at 4096x2160 in the middle and 30 inch 2560x1600 displays on either side. MIDI keyboards all over the place, DMXIS hanging out of a USB port, Maschine Studio and S61 controller, Presonus 24AI mixer, MBox Pro, you name it. Stability is very so-so. As of tonight, my hard disk has some corrupt files that cannot be removed or repaired. Fortunately the damned thing runs, but it does crash periodically. My latest experiment has been trying to get the Maschine Studio to trigger songs and associated programmed light cues by hitting a pad. I think it can be done but it will involve some creative improvisation.

For this lighting laptop I am thinking of installing only lighting-specific software, nothing else. No Creative Cloud, no MS Office, no ProTools, no Avid, no Internet Explorer, no nothing. I want the thing to run as stable as humanly possible and I'm not sure any Windows 10 system with a plethora of audio and video drivers is capable of being crash proof at this point. I already have a laptop for computing, I envision that this laptop is basically going to be a Martin M-PC lighting server and not much of anything else. I want stability, but I fear it is an impossible dream, a fool's errand. But I never stop trying though, do I? No, I don't.

For the lighting server have you considered running Windows SBS?  It's expensive but light.  You can turn off all the services you don't need and not have to deal with the auto update crap (I prefer to decide when to apply my updates thank you).

While we are on the subject, I love my 4k display as I am sure you do to but Windows is really dumb about the scaling and doesn't provide good tools for tweaking it.  If I open one more terminal session and am greeted with sub micron fonts I think I will empty my Browning Gold Cup into the damn thing.

[Marc Paolella]

For the lighting server have you considered running Windows SBS?  It's expensive but light.  You can turn off all the services you don't need and not have to deal with the auto update crap (I prefer to decide when to apply my updates thank you).

While we are on the subject, I love my 4k display as I am sure you do to but Windows is really dumb about the scaling and doesn't provide good tools for tweaking it.  If I open one more terminal session and am greeted with sub micron fonts I think I will empty my Browning Gold Cup into the damn thing.

Oh don't get me started on the scaling. Most of my core apps look gorgeous thank God. However: Ever try running Avid Media Composer on a 4K?. You would think a professional video editing program would handle the latest monitor technology with ease and aplomb. You would be wrong. So wrong, that you would have to do what I have done and move to Adobe Premiere Pro as your video editor. So I'm maintaining my Avid licenses for MC and Pro Tools, but cannot use Media Composer. I keep paying in the hope that they will soon correct this issue. If you give up your MC license, starting over is uber expensive. Meanwhile 4K monitors are NOT NEW and Avid still hasn't fixed the problem. Premiere Pro and Pro Tools do scale properly and look gorgeous. So does Photoshop. But then, Adobe hasn't updated Bridge so that has the lovely 1/8 point fonts on the 4K. I solve that by sliding its screen on to one of the 30 inchers and at 2K rez it looks good. But yeah, lots of compromises. I'll check into Windows SBS, but I thought I read they were killing that in one of the trades a while back. But I could be wrong.

I think if I do a crapware excision and install Windows 10 from scratch, and then go service by service and eliminate anything extraneous, I can construct a laptop that will run lights and sound in a stable manner. But of course, I might be in Dreamsville again.

Who here is old enough to remember that song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHyr9GS1lzo&ebc=ANyPxKq0WBUcabkHNzjxV1j3lB6vbaPHmN9_v7ll6SxGC40t1Oiuxd7LKBlNilFukuECehT19PaPgshNFqyzTAoAg74dPfVGgA

[Scott Holtzman]

Oh don't get me started on the scaling. Most of my core apps look gorgeous thank God. However: Ever try running Avid Media Composer on a 4K?. You would think a professional video editing program would handle the latest monitor technology with ease and aplomb. You would be wrong. So wrong, that you would have to do what I have done and move to Adobe Premiere Pro as your video editor. So I'm maintaining my Avid licenses for MC and Pro Tools, but cannot use Media Composer. I keep paying in the hope that they will soon correct this issue. If you give up your MC license, starting over is uber expensive. Meanwhile 4K monitors are NOT NEW and Avid still hasn't fixed the problem. Premiere Pro and Pro Tools do scale properly and look gorgeous. So does Photoshop. But then, Adobe hasn't updated Bridge so that has the lovely 1/8 point fonts on the 4K. I solve that by sliding its screen on to one of the 30 inchers and at 2K rez it looks good. But yeah, lots of compromises. I'll check into Windows SBS, but I thought I read they were killing that in one of the trades a while back. But I could be wrong.

I think if I do a crapware excision and install Windows 10 from scratch, and then go service by service and eliminate anything extraneous, I can construct a laptop that will run lights and sound in a stable manner. But of course, I might be in Dreamsville again.

Who here is old enough to remember that song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHyr9GS1lzo&ebc=ANyPxKq0WBUcabkHNzjxV1j3lB6vbaPHmN9_v7ll6SxGC40t1Oiuxd7LKBlNilFukuECehT19PaPgshNFqyzTAoAg74dPfVGgA

You are right, it's not SBS anymore, it's called Server Essentials.

Let me know how you do on ripping out the update engine in 10.

You are right 4k monitors are nothing new.  Affordable 4k monitors, now that's new.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

For this lighting laptop I am thinking of installing only lighting-specific software, nothing else. No Creative Cloud, no MS Office, no ProTools, no Avid, no Internet Explorer, no nothing. I want the thing to run as stable as humanly possible and I'm not sure any Windows 10 system with a plethora of audio and video drivers is capable of being crash proof at this point. I already have a laptop for computing, I envision that this laptop is basically going to be a Martin M-PC lighting server and not much of anything else. I want stability, but I fear it is an impossible dream, a fool's errand. But I never stop trying though, do I? No, I don't.

Yes to a dedicated laptop for M-PC, no to server code on your laptop.  No reason to upgrade to Core i7 for a dedicated M-PC machine.

If you're worried about automatic updates (you shouldn't be), simply don't use the network card.  M-PC connects via USB, and once installed, you can treat it as a disconnected appliance if you want to.  Keeping other software off is the key to stability.  Allowing Windows Updates for the software you actually need is a good thing.  If you're paranoid, you can update after a delay.

Sever code adds nothing other than severe expense and headaches to your system. 

[Mike Lowe]

I ordered the SD-2 CF today, got a great price. It is not in stock, it should ship on April 27, which will be fine. We have a big show in June, I'm looking to have it programed and fully functional by then.


I looked up the specs on the Elation operator's manual. The unit supports a PS2 keyboard. I found an HP PS2 keyboard new in the box on eBay  for $9 including shipping. It will be here before the Elation.

Thanks for the help!

I just got word from GC, the Elation finally shipped. I'm on my way to Illinois for a drum clinic, I'm hoping that the SD2 will be here when I get back.

[ProSoundWeb Community]