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Author Topic: Need some pro suggestions please  (Read 3662 times)

Eric Lyon

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Need some pro suggestions please
« on: April 04, 2016, 08:48:58 pm »

First let me say I am not anywhere close to a professional in sound. What I am is the person my school system has chosen to find answers to problems with most of our sound needs. This is a fairly long question with a few parts.

This is about stadium sound, our stadium is semi sunken and currently we have 2 - Elements™ 115C 105X60RT with a IPR2™ 5000 DSP for power to the speakers. They are mounted centrally on the pressbox and do a good job to provide sound thru the entire stadium. The first problem is when I have a speaker on the field for example - graduation, it is really hard for them to speak due to the reverb bouncing around the stadium. It takes more than a few seconds for each spoken word to dissipate. Ideas or thoughts about how I can make it easier for the person on the field to speak? I have a podium we could hide a monitor inside. A wireless solution would be best.

Second part of this is about microphones. Its about 250ft from the microphone to the receiver. On a salesman's suggestion we bought a high dollar line 6 mic and receiver. It works decent when the stadium is empty but due to the 2.4ghz it runs on, when I put 1000 cellphones and humans between them the signal is slow and drops out. Other microphones that would be a better solution in this situation?

Let me say thanks in advance.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 09:09:56 pm »

Solution one: wireless IEMs.
Solution two: Either directional antenna, or moving antenna closer to speaking position. As a Shure and Sennheiser dealer, the suggestion(s) I would make would be based on those options. Shure, QLX-D would be a great solid solution- with a UA874US at the receiver, you would have a great signal strength. Of course, the best wireless solution still might not be as good as running a $50 XLR cable... ;)

Side note: Purchasing a solution suggested by a salesperson (as opposed to an acoustical or installation consultant or contractor) is looking for trouble. They commonly want to sell you either what they have in stock at the moment, or what brings them the highest margin, and those products might not be the right solution for your situation.

-Ray
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Eric Lyon

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2016, 09:36:22 pm »

Ray, below is a link to a pic of the stadium. We fill this during graduation so interference was a issue using a 2.4ghz mic even with the extra antenna's. Would there be a issue at that distance using the IEM's?

https://i.imgsafe.org/31f3e71.jpg
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2016, 09:51:19 pm »

Well if you get IEMs that aren't running on 2.4GHz (that you identified as your problem) then you should be better off--
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2016, 10:05:36 pm »

First let me say I am not anywhere close to a professional in sound. What I am is the person my school system has chosen to find answers to problems with most of our sound needs. This is a fairly long question with a few parts.

This is about stadium sound, our stadium is semi sunken and currently we have 2 - Elements™ 115C 105X60RT with a IPR2™ 5000 DSP for power to the speakers. They are mounted centrally on the pressbox and do a good job to provide sound thru the entire stadium. The first problem is when I have a speaker on the field for example - graduation, it is really hard for them to speak due to the reverb bouncing around the stadium. It takes more than a few seconds for each spoken word to dissipate. Ideas or thoughts about how I can make it easier for the person on the field to speak? I have a podium we could hide a monitor inside. A wireless solution would be best.

Second part of this is about microphones. Its about 250ft from the microphone to the receiver. On a salesman's suggestion we bought a high dollar line 6 mic and receiver. It works decent when the stadium is empty but due to the 2.4ghz it runs on, when I put 1000 cellphones and humans between them the signal is slow and drops out. Other microphones that would be a better solution in this situation?

Let me say thanks in advance.

IEMs would help. It's been a while since I've done a stadium. However, when I do it's typically at a new stadium and there is a dedication ceremony. I always suggest that whomever speaks write down what they want to say and stick to the script. I suggested this to a principal once and received a big attitude. She said "This is norms first time speaking in public!! I speak in front of people all the time I know what I'm doing and I don't need any help" well ok.... I didn't like the lady before this interaction. Sure enough she stuttered all over the place. Write it down!
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John Rutirasiri

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 10:07:45 pm »

Ray, below is a link to a pic of the stadium. We fill this during graduation so interference was a issue using a 2.4ghz mic even with the extra antenna's. Would there be a issue at that distance using the IEM's?

https://i.imgsafe.org/31f3e71.jpg

Eric, last summer I installed a new sound system at Adlai E. Stevenson HS football stadium (Lincolnshire, IL -- a Chicago suburb).  They had very similar issues to yours:  speech intelligibility and wireless mic RF coverage.

Concerning the speech intelligibility and sound bouncing all over the place, can you post pictures of how the speakers are mounted and aimed?  What is the height?  I think we need some data to start.  Next would be the processor settings, such as high pass filter, parametric EQs and delay (although you only have 2 speakers.)

Concerning the wireless mics, "been there done that" with Sabine's 2.4GHz  As you've discovered, it's just too congested when there's a crowd and becomes unreliable. 

We evaluated Shure ULXD and QLXD but instead went with the old but proven UR4D+ for the distance -- its distance far surpassed the ULXD and especially QLXD in real-world environment. 

For a stadium where you can't predict where the wireless will be, I would go with omni antennas.  Mounted one on each end of the pressbox.  Don't worry that the pressbox is metal -- for us, it actually helped with the omni antennas (behaves kind of like a dish -- just make sure the antenna do not touch the pressbox.)  Even with the transmitter at low power (10mW on the UR2, I think), we got exceptional coverage beyond the stadium grounds.   We used an in-line amp and RG213X cabling to minimize loss.

Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions.

Best,
John R.
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Erik Jerde

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2016, 11:32:49 pm »

What the previous guys have said is good advice.  Loose the line 6 wireless.  2.4Ghz is hitting you with a few problems.  It's congested with wifi devices, has a smaller coverage distance, and uses more power than a UHF band device.  Get with a local AV integrator who can work with you on antenna placement, cabling, and proper RF gain structure.  Don't buy equipment from them, buy a solution to your problem.  That way it's on them to get you something that actually works, not just sell you what they've got on the shelf.  Maybe avoid the guy who sold you that line 6... unless he offers to buy it back.

Wireless IEMs is probably the best way to help your speakers be smooth without spending a lot of money on a whole new PA system for the stadium.  You do need to find a way to convince them to use them.  Might want to feel out your speakers prior to the event and if there is push back just have them come out and speak sometime prior to the event and see how it works.  If you have multiple speakers you may need a couple IEM systems.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 12:02:17 am »

Haven't done anything in a football stadium in years but would a small wedge help the presenters?  Just enough for the precedence to cover the reflections in the stadium.  Many people don't like to hear themselves and will back off the mic, but it might be less disconcerting.  Can't imagine how you'd get a series of speakers at an event to use IEMs.  Plus most regular folks have no idea what that is like to hear themselves in their head.
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John Rutirasiri

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2016, 12:02:23 am »

The audio delay could very well be due to those Line 6 mics.  Digital wireless mics in the 2.4GHz band do not have deterministic latency...the delays are all over the place.

As others have said, those Line 6 have got to go!  This may solve your problem.

John R.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 01:07:40 am »

The audio delay could very well be due to those Line 6 mics.  Digital wireless mics in the 2.4GHz band do not have deterministic latency...the delays are all over the place.

As others have said, those Line 6 have got to go!  This may solve your problem.

John R.

He's starting out with 250' of distance between the talker and the loudspeakers, according to the picture he linked above.  That looks a little bit "long" to me, if the football field is 300' long, but after about 80-100ms, it's too much regardless.

The primary problem is that the loudspeaker system was never designed to do what is being asked of it.
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Re: Need some pro suggestions please
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 01:07:40 am »


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