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Author Topic: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement  (Read 9754 times)

Andri Irawan

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Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« on: April 01, 2016, 11:10:28 pm »

So I have been volunteering in church and learning about sound system on my own.  The overall system had already been setup before I volunteered so I basically just took over.

The system was set to run 2 Outline DVS 115 SW Subs powered by Outline T FIVE Amplifier.
Both had just recently blown.  I think they were blown because of too much power, where the amplifier is giving max 1400W at 8 ohms while the sub's power rating is 350W AES and 1400W peak.

I am looking at Martin Audio S12+ for the replacement due to its almost similar size and weight.  But it has slightly higher power rating (400W AES, 1600W peak).

Looking forward to any second opinion. 

Thank you.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 12:39:01 am »

So I have been volunteering in church and learning about sound system on my own.  The overall system had already been setup before I volunteered so I basically just took over.

The system was set to run 2 Outline DVS 115 SW Subs powered by Outline T FIVE Amplifier.
Both had just recently blown.  I think they were blown because of too much power, where the amplifier is giving max 1400W at 8 ohms while the sub's power rating is 350W AES and 1400W peak.

I am looking at Martin Audio S12+ for the replacement due to its almost similar size and weight.  But it has slightly higher power rating (400W AES, 1600W peak).

Looking forward to any second opinion. 

Thank you.

I think that you won't find the single 12" to be quite the sub that the single 15" is that you are used to.

Does it need to be portable?
For the same price range as the S12+ you could get a Martin Audio CSX212.  Double 12", much higher efficiency, higher about, higher power handling, similar frequency response to the Outline (the S12+ will not go as low as the Outline).  The CSX line is the installation subwoofer line to go with the CDD series.

The Danley THMINI would be a good offering although more expensive than the CSX212, not quite as high an output, slightly better frequency response.

Lee
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Andri Irawan

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 07:40:28 am »

I think that you won't find the single 12" to be quite the sub that the single 15" is that you are used to.

Does it need to be portable?
For the same price range as the S12+ you could get a Martin Audio CSX212.  Double 12", much higher efficiency, higher about, higher power handling, similar frequency response to the Outline (the S12+ will not go as low as the Outline).  The CSX line is the installation subwoofer line to go with the CDD series.

The Danley THMINI would be a good offering although more expensive than the CSX212, not quite as high an output, slightly better frequency response.

Lee

Hi, Lee.
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

The Danley THMINI is not that easy to purchase from where I am currently residing in Singapore.

We are to setup and dismantle our sound system every Sunday, hence we need portable setup.
I am tempted to go CDD series, combining 2 CSX112 Subs and 2 CDD8 to serve our current 150 - 200 congregations.  But, they don't seem to have pole mounting.

Our current setup:
- Digital Mixer: Soundcraft Expression 2 (24 input)
- Power Amp: 1 Outline TFive 2 Channels, 1 Outline T44 4 Channels
- Vocal Mics: 6 wireless, 6 wired for backup
- Instruments: 1 Keyboard (1 spare), 1 Guitar, 1 Bass, 1 Electric Drum
- Speaker: 2 Outline EIDOS X123W
- Subwoofer: 2 Outline DVS115SW 22kg
- Monitor: 2 Outline DVS12, 1 Rolland
- Snakes: 2 x 8 Channels

I have been thinking, while looking for replacement for the blown subs, why not looking for ways to make these even more portable, by replacing:
1. the mixer with QSC TOUCHMIX 16
2. the speaker, subs and monitors with lighter ones but still keeping the power.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 08:20:39 am by Andri Irawan »
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 10:12:53 am »

Let's find out *WHY* the first set of subs were blown (and I'm assuming you've tested to make sure it's the subs that are actually failing, and not something else in the signal chain somewhere?) before looking to replace. If you throw new subs at the system and the cause(s) of the first failure hasn't been corrected, you're potentially going to do the same to the second pair. (And if your current subs are still fine, and it's something *else* in the signal chain that's failing, new subs won't fix that either.)

ASSuming that the system processing/output limiter on the amp was set properly, you should not find it easy to destroy the subs.

-Ray
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Andri Irawan

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 11:54:24 am »

Let's find out *WHY* the first set of subs were blown (and I'm assuming you've tested to make sure it's the subs that are actually failing, and not something else in the signal chain somewhere?) before looking to replace. If you throw new subs at the system and the cause(s) of the first failure hasn't been corrected, you're potentially going to do the same to the second pair. (And if your current subs are still fine, and it's something *else* in the signal chain that's failing, new subs won't fix that either.)

ASSuming that the system processing/output limiter on the amp was set properly, you should not find it easy to destroy the subs.

-Ray

Hi Ray,

They were just 'burnt' during music service, complete with burning smell and a little bit of smoke.  I quickly unplugged the speakon connector when it happened.  When the service was over, I took out the cone and it's not moving when pressed.  The coil was burnt.

They weren't blown at the same time. The second sub were blown a few weeks later with the same symptom.  This week we're going to have the service without any subs.

Now that you mentioned about system processing/output limiter.  With my limited knowledge, I dont think there is any.  The mixer is directly connected to the amp. Is it something that has to be done on the amp?  I am not aware of it.  I assumed it had been set during initial setup.  Will have to check the amp's manual for more details.

thank you.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2016, 01:42:15 pm »

Andri,

The online spec sheet shows that one of the features of the T-Series amplifier is a user-selectable "maximum output power for each channel," so that should be set appropriately to ensure protection of the speakers. It's a good start, however, no amount of amplifier protection/DSP processing will save the system from operator error. =-\

If you had a professional company sell these to you and install them, I would be surprised that they didn't configure those settings properly before installation. But, if you just bought them at a music store and did the install yourself, this would be the Ye Olde Tuition At The School Of Hard Knocks. You blew shit up, now find out why so you don't do it again. :)

-Ray
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 01:43:46 pm »

And by the way, if you lost your subs with this configuration issue-- the mains or monitors could be next, so it is SUPER IMPORTANT to get this worked out before you do!

-r
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Andri Irawan

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2016, 02:12:20 pm »

Andri,

The online spec sheet shows that one of the features of the T-Series amplifier is a user-selectable "maximum output power for each channel," so that should be set appropriately to ensure protection of the speakers. It's a good start, however, no amount of amplifier protection/DSP processing will save the system from operator error. =-\

If you had a professional company sell these to you and install them, I would be surprised that they didn't configure those settings properly before installation. But, if you just bought them at a music store and did the install yourself, this would be the Ye Olde Tuition At The School Of Hard Knocks. You blew shit up, now find out why so you don't do it again. :)

-Ray

It was sold and installed by a professional company, but we're no longer in touch.
When I go to church this sunday, I will check if the "maximum output power for each channel" was set properly.  I have never checked/touched the amp's settings since day 1, this is my mistake.  Expensive lessons learned.

Thank you for your kind replies.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2016, 02:59:36 pm »

Hi, Lee.
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

The Danley THMINI is not that easy to purchase from where I am currently residing in Singapore.

We are to setup and dismantle our sound system every Sunday, hence we need portable setup.
I am tempted to go CDD series, combining 2 CSX112 Subs and 2 CDD8 to serve our current 150 - 200 congregations.  But, they don't seem to have pole mounting.

Our current setup:
- Digital Mixer: Soundcraft Expression 2 (24 input)
- Power Amp: 1 Outline TFive 2 Channels, 1 Outline T44 4 Channels
- Vocal Mics: 6 wireless, 6 wired for backup
- Instruments: 1 Keyboard (1 spare), 1 Guitar, 1 Bass, 1 Electric Drum
- Speaker: 2 Outline EIDOS X123W
- Subwoofer: 2 Outline DVS115SW 22kg
- Monitor: 2 Outline DVS12, 1 Rolland
- Snakes: 2 x 8 Channels

I have been thinking, while looking for replacement for the blown subs, why not looking for ways to make these even more portable, by replacing:
1. the mixer with QSC TOUCHMIX 16
2. the speaker, subs and monitors with lighter ones but still keeping the power.

Andri,
If Martin is easier to come by and you can wait just a little there is a portable version of the CDD series being launched at Musikmesse next weekend.  I don't know any price ranges yet or what initial offerings will be but I am expecting very competitive pricing and the CDD/CSX family drivers but with portable features.  I don't know if there will be both passive and self powered options or only one or the other.  Announcements should be made opening day of Musikmesse.

Lee
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 09:15:34 pm »

Watts is NOT the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Output is what you are looking for.

Sometimes a speaker with a lower wattage rating can actually be LOUDER.

If you blew up the current drivers, it means that you don't have enough speakers for the job you are trying to do.

You can either turn the levels down or set some limiters to help protect them.

Or get more of the SAME speaker.  It is not generally a good idea to mix different sub models.
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Re: Blown Subwoofers and Looking for Replacement
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 09:15:34 pm »


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