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[Bob Faulkner]

Long story short, how many of you have seen the use of xlr (mic) cables as speaker cables? 

I've seen it a few times... hmmm.

[Rick Powell]

Long story short, how many of you have seen the use of xlr (mic) cables as speaker cables? 

I've seen it a few times... hmmm.

Very rarely, some older equipment was designed that way. Much more common to see shielded 1/4" TS cable being used in a pinch.

[Ivan Beaver]

Long story short, how many of you have seen the use of xlr (mic) cables as speaker cables? 

I've seen it a few times... hmmm.

Are you talking about using mic cables or speaker cables that have XLRs on the ends?

VERY different things.

I used to use XLRs on my speaker cables (back in the 70s-mid 80s).

1/4" cables handle less power and the "pro" stuff used AC twist locks-which were to expensive for me.

Actual mic cable is much smaller.  I used 16 and 18 ga.  Typically the largest mic cable you would get is 20 ga, with most of it being 24 ga or smaller

[Mac Kerr]

Long story short, how many of you have seen the use of xlr (mic) cables as speaker cables? 

I've seen it a few times... hmmm.

Yes, the shop I started at in 1976 (Pete Erskine was one of the owners) used mic cable for speakers. It was Belden 8412, which was two 18ga conductors and a heavy braided shield. We wired pins 2&3 together as the plus, and pin 1 as minus. This gave about a 14ga speaker connection, which in the days of 200W amps being huge was a pretty respectable cable.

Mac

[Bob Faulkner]

Are you talking about using mic cables or speaker cables that have XLRs on the ends?

VERY different things.

I used to use XLRs on my speaker cables (back in the 70s-mid 80s).

1/4" cables handle less power and the "pro" stuff used AC twist locks-which were to expensive for me.

Actual mic cable is much smaller.  I used 16 and 18 ga.  Typically the largest mic cable you would get is 20 ga, with most of it being 24 ga or smaller

This is actual mic cabling.  Possibly 20ga wire.  The location I've seen is running amplifier power through the returns of a snake (~30ft).  From the returns, mic cables are connected.  The original ends of the XLR cables (male ends) have been removed and terminated with either 1/4" or speakon (depending on which speakers are being fed).

I can certainly see using mic cables in a (severe) pinch, but what I've seen (worst case) the mic cables are used for a permanent install for FOH and monitors.

Yeah - I used to have some old Peavey 118 cabinets that provided 1/4" and XLR.  Never used the XLR connections.  For sure - I recall when 200 watts was "beefy".

[Brian Jojade]

Most snakes use much lighter cable, usually 24 gauge wire. 60 feet of 24 gauge wire (2 conductors in the path) would have a resistance of just over 1.5 ohms. Add in your short patches, and you will easily be above 2 ohms. This loss is in series with your speaker. With a 4 ohm load that means about 1/3 of the total power is lost in the cable.

Is it ideal? No, probably not. Will it work? Yes, under most scenarios it would work fine.

[Tim Padrick]

Not only is the gauge too small, some amps perform poorly when such a capacitive cable is used.  I've seen some overheat and shut down when playing at very low levels.

[Scott Holtzman]

Mike Sokol has an article on this exact topic in this months Live Sound International.

[Jerome Malsack]

On a permanent install, it might be possible but I would prefer the 18 gauge for running a 70V line down to the speakers.  Mic cable and 20 gauge would still be a bit small for the 70V lines.  This would require the transformers at the speakers also adding to a higher cost.  Might help to prevent crosstalk to the mic lines because of the balanced signal on the 70V. 

Would be more cost effective to use as we typically setup with amps near the stage and using line level. 

just my thoughts on the subject.

[Ivan Beaver]

This is actual mic cabling.  Possibly 20ga wire. 

s
There are very few 20 ga mic cables.

Belden 8412 is the most popular.

Most others are 22 or 24 ga wire.  With cheap imports being 26 ga.

I WOULD NOT assume it is 20ga.

[Dave Pluke]

Long story short, how many of you have seen the use of xlr (mic) cables as speaker cables? 

The only two examples I can think of using XLR for speaker connections were Thomas Organ VOX and Ampeg amps.  Both were supplied with proper gauge speaker wire patch cables. 

Somewhere along the line, someone may have stuck a microphone cable in the chain.  But, it wasn't to original spec.

Dave

[Chris Hindle]

The only two examples I can think of using XLR for speaker connections were Thomas Organ VOX and Ampeg amps.  Both were supplied with proper gauge speaker wire patch cables. 

Dave

Martin used XLR-M, XLR-F and 1/4" on the 3-way Phillishave rig.
BUT, you were expected to use speaker cable with the correct ends, not mic line.
Chris

[Bob Faulkner]

Not only is the gauge too small, some amps perform poorly when such a capacitive cable is used.  I've seen some overheat and shut down when playing at very low levels.

Yeah - one of the places I mix at (on the house equipment) has some "hot" running crown amps.

There are very few 20 ga mic cables.

Belden 8412 is the most popular.

Most others are 22 or 24 ga wire.  With cheap imports being 26 ga.

I WOULD NOT assume it is 20ga.

Probably is 22 or 24ga wire.  Next time I'm back there, I'll remember to get the name of the cable.

Mike Sokol has an article on this exact topic in this months Live Sound International.

Thanks for the info.  Will check it out.

[Nathan Vanderslice]

Yeah - one of the places I mix at (on the house equipment) has some "hot" running crown amps.

Probably is 22 or 24ga wire.  Next time I'm back there, I'll remember to get the name of the cable.

Thanks for the info.  Will check it out.

Yeah, I just recently had to give a bit of stern wording to one of the people using our church and using some of the instrument cables <20 ga. for speaker wire. 1/4 plugs and jacks on the mixer/amp and the speakers. While most decent equipment might have safeguards to limit overload, certainly not all, and what I explained to him was that if he kept doing that, he was likely to blow his amp. High resistance and capacitance = low signal to the speakers, so what do you do? Crank the amp. (At least I think I got that right.) LOL

[Joseph D. Macry]

Long story short, how many of you have seen the use of xlr (mic) cables as speaker cables? 

I've seen it a few times... hmmm.

I have a couple of Carvin speakers and amps from the early '90s that use XLR connectors. They came with 16-awg XLR speaker cables.

As for using actual mic cable, I saw a church where they were using the line returns on their snake for speaker feeds from the powered mixer.

[Bob Faulkner]

I have a couple of Carvin speakers and amps from the early '90s that use XLR connectors. They came with 16-awg XLR speaker cables.

As for using actual mic cable, I saw a church where they were using the line returns on their snake for speaker feeds from the powered mixer.

A place I occasionally mix at (house equipment) uses the snake returns (along with mic cables) for FOH and monitors speakers.

[Stan Shields]

A place I occasionally mix at (house equipment) uses the snake returns (along with mic cables) for FOH and monitors speakers.

I did a walk-in gig recently and found the power amps located at the FOH position and all the speakers being driven by pairs in the 100ft. snake, it freaked me out but the system ran all night, go figure :-)

[Tim McCulloch]

I have a couple of Carvin speakers and amps from the early '90s that use XLR connectors. They came with 16-awg XLR speaker cables.

As for using actual mic cable, I saw a church where they were using the line returns on their snake for speaker feeds from the powered mixer.

The major cabling houses offered (and may still offer) snakes that had larger, unshielded conductors for speaker-level returns to the stage.

[Joseph D. Macry]

The major cabling houses offered (and may still offer) snakes that had larger, unshielded conductors for speaker-level returns to the stage.

True that; I have seen "powered mixer snakes" with 16-awg or larger (with 1/4" jacks and plugs) in the same jacket as the mic runs. One hopes the shielding on the input lines is good.
I have also seen "powered speaker cables", where speaker- and power-cables are sewn together.
The one I mentioned was 24-awg returns with opposite-sex XLRs. But like the poster above, it was working to the church's satisfaction.

[Stephen Kirby]

Mixing speaker or AC in the same jacket with a shielded balanced (differential) low level audio feed isn't a problem.  The nature of the balanced line cancels out the common mode AC coupled into it.  I have bunches of siamese XLR/AC cables for powered speakers.

I also remember the NEMA twist locks used on speakers in the '70s.  Often 4 contact connectors used on bi-amped cabinets.  I figured the companies that did this just used a different size for their amp rack's AC.    The guy in Honolulu who did more of the arena shows had his monitors with twist locks.  His old bins and horns stacks had XLRs on the cabs but he went to a 5-way system and used some mil circular connectors he got somewhere.

[paul bell]

As I recall, early Turbo Sound speakers had XLR connectors.

I assumed anybody using them would have a case of XLR mic cables and XLR speaker cables that were of the proper gauge for speaker power use and un-shielded. It was just way too easy to mix them up.

[Ivan Beaver]

As I recall, early Turbo Sound speakers had XLR connectors.

I assumed anybody using them would have a case of XLR mic cables and XLR speaker cables that were of the proper gauge for speaker power use and un-shielded. It was just way too easy to mix them up.

I used to color code mine, so the speakers didn't get mixed up with the mics.

The problem with "proper sized" XLRs is that most XLRs (of the time anyway) would not accept anything larger than 18ga.

I used to hunt down (mainly at Ham fests) the Cannon Xlrs.

I would remove the rubber boot and you could get 16 ga sepaker wire in them.  THey still had a screw down clamp so the cable was secure.

Switchcrafts had to clamp if you removed the boot.

The only way to get 12 ga was to go to the much  more expensive NEMA AC type plugs.

I was happy when the EP connectors came out.  NOW we could get proper wire into them. 

[Pete Erskine]

Yes, the shop I started at in 1976 (Pete Erskine was one of the owners) used mic cable for speakers.

Pre Theatre Tech, Lou and I worked for the New York Shakespeare Festival running the newly established sound shop.  We used XLR mic cable there too.  Males on the amps and females on the speakers to help avoid plugging a mic into the amp output.

One day I was setting up the sound system in the Other Stage (a black box) and had just plugged in the amp.  I turned up the volume and only heard a very tinny sound coming from the stage...Walking out onto the floor I realized it was all coming from the AKG dynamic dressing room monitor mic over the stage.  Opps...Luckily it was able to handle the power and was not hurt.  So much for male female protection.

As convenient as using mic cables as speaker cable is, their small wire size and danger of mixing them with mics should be enough to stop that use.

Now don't get in the mindset that Monster cables are the best way to go...a nice 14 or better 12 gauge is best.

[Art Welter]

I was happy when the EP connectors came out.  NOW we could get proper wire into them.

NOW was a lot earlier than you were aware of them THEN  .

The 1955 Cannon catalog listed their P series connectors, available from 2 to 6 contact inserts. Alcatel and Amphenol still make the connectors as the EP series with a metal shell and the AP series with a plastic shell.

The Speakon designers used the same hole/screw pattern as the more expensive older connectors.

Art

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