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[David Buckley]

Back when I was twenty-something(!), a then good mate of mine asked me to do sound for his cabaret band.  I'd been doing sound for years by that point.  So I go along to a rehearsal, and from the opening bars of the first number I was struck by how good the drums sounded.  The kit looked like a normal drum kit, a Yamaha, it was played by what looked like a normal human, albeit a slightly shorter than standard issue specimen, but it sure as hell didn't sound like any drum kit I'd ever encountered.  I was stunned that a drum kit could actually sound that good.

[Luke Geis]

I utilize this trick quite a bit. My experience with it is that it sort of lands you as a one trick pony. Getting the gate and release times right is hard enough, but once you have the meat of it done you are still left with the tone you wish to emphasize. I utilize a two way approach. I run my subs on an aux and tune the kick itself as best I can while reducing the low end so it is not emphasized. This is not too hard since the actual kick is not running in the aux fed subs. I then bring in the level of the sub kick into the aux subs only. This gives the big boom. I typically end up between 53hz and 60hz. Too low and it just sounds unrealistic and too high it starts to get woofy. I will roll the lows off the real kick up to the center frequency of the sub kick tone. You tend to end up with your idea of an ideal sound pretty quickly because of the ability to tune to desire. Once you can clear the hurdles, it is open range. That open range is pretty small if your looking to produce " a sound "......

The problem with the sub kick, is that on a tight stage, there is sometimes enough bleed from other instruments to cause the gate to open prematurely. I utilize a side chain in the gate that is frequency dependent and that cures a lot of that issue, but the talent is the biggest problem. If the drummer is so inconsistent that he can't regularly get the gate to open all the way or not at all, you end up back at square one. I have had more than a few occasions where I had to abort the sub kick approach and go conventional. The subs kick trick still requires a decent drummer, although a less talented one can be brought pretty far forward.

I have been going back and forth the last few months trying other ways to get that produced kick drum sound. Short of using triggers and samples, the sub kick trick is the best way of doing it despite its shortcomings. Since it is a tool, it is also not perfect for everything and accepting defeat every now and then is ideal. Use what works the best. Sometimes just putting a mic up there and letting them whack away is the best and sometimes playing god is the way to go.

[John Roberts {JR}]

Back when I was twenty-something(!), a then good mate of mine asked me to do sound for his cabaret band.  I'd been doing sound for years by that point.  So I go along to a rehearsal, and from the opening bars of the first number I was struck by how good the drums sounded.  The kit looked like a normal drum kit, a Yamaha, it was played by what looked like a normal human, albeit a slightly shorter than standard issue specimen, but it sure as hell didn't sound like any drum kit I'd ever encountered.  I was stunned that a drum kit could actually sound that good.

A well tuned drum can sound quite different... not as common as you would expect.

JR

PS: caveat emptor... I'm pimping myself.

[David Buckley]

PS: caveat emptor... I'm pimping myself.

I know   But that's fine by me!

[Jay Barracato]

So I am expected to carry and use all this extra processing because the drummer won't use a $3 drum key?

I was told that by the guitarist of one band so I started to talk about ways to improve the guitars tone, amp changes, removing pedals etc. The whole conversation ended quickly then. Funny how one band member would go behind another's back to try and get me to "fix" another band member but wouldn't consider any room for improvement in his own department.

Seriously, I see bands repeat every 4-6 months these days, and I am not included in any decisions about arrangement or other producing roles, so I feel no need for any technical enhancement beyond creating a neutral background for the bands to perform on.

On a similar note, I would think that anyone involved with festivals would have noted that a mix, no matter how good, gets stale after 3-4 bands that are tonally the same. Using the same kick profile is an easy path to stale. I am even given to moving the kick around tonally in the same set for the same band. A 10 hz swing in the fundamental can make a world of difference.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Luke Geis]

Jay,

    That is what I was saying about " one trick pony ". As soon as you get the produced sound your looking for, you tend to end up using it a lot. With the sub kick trick, this is easier to do because you can almost always keep the same fundamental and carve out the mid and top end to fit your profile. I didn't really catch it until after a few months of doing this nearly regularly. I would on occasion have a visiting engineer and this is when I noticed it the most. I am a huge believer that every engineer can do something better than you and I had a couple come through that proved it to me. While I wish I was a sound god, there are many things I need to work on still. After objectively listening to others mixes I came to realize that mine kinda sounded like mine and for a reason. I then went with the conventional way of doing the kick drum and alas it was different than the sub kick way. Not better, not worse, but different. After a few more shows utilizing the sub kick, I saw the one trick pony come alive. I could make any drummers kick sound nearly identical. As of late, I am convinced that I need to asses the goals and sound a little more and use the technique with more discretion and poise. While I don't feel it is a big deal that I can make several drummers sound pretty much the same, It is good to be able to make the sound fit better for the genre and the drummers style. I haven't gotten any complaints on my mix quality in a long time, so I am doing something right it seems?

My initial goal for utilizing the trick was to eliminate the problems of an inconsistent drummer. I fixed that and was able to subsequently get a more produced sound. You want your gut kicked? No problem at all......... It does free up a little headroom, which is nice, but too much of a good thing is still too much.....

[Scott Olewiler]

A well tuned bass drum might be ruined by someone unecessarily cutting a hole in it.  Best sounding bass drums I've had on stage were when there was no "mic hole" and we put the kick mic in front of the reso head and left the channel eq flat.

Coincidence? Maybe?

Most of the time I get "cardboard box" masquerading as a bass drum to work with and end up either doing EQ gymnastics or using a generated tone to make up the missing thump.

[Stephen Kirby]

There is a different between drummers who "bury the beater" and those who pick their foot up and let the head sustain.  FWIW, my experience of most sound people is that they want the deadest thud possible.  The drummer forums I'm on are full of rants about sound people demanding holes cut in the reso heads, and more damping in the drum.  Indoors room resonance often creates more sustain than the drum has and I've often found gating to be effective in cleaning up the groove.

With the typical damped kick head (SuperKick, EMAD, etc) and "contoured" kick mic there's usually some decent amount of LF going on.  Instead of augmenting with an artificial sine tone, what about side chaining a gate and eq to have extra "whatever" to mix back into the natural kick sound?

[David Buckley]

So I am expected to carry and use all this extra processing because the drummer won't use a $3 drum key?

Nope.  But going the extra yard for a band may be noticed, and may get you repeat businesses....

And the fact the drummer has that $3 key does not guarantee he knows how to use it, or even if he knows how to use it, his idea of the target may be so wide of the mark he may be better off leaving the drums the way they came from the music store.  Point in fact: for my entire gigging career i carried a drum key, but to this day I have no idea what to do with it.  Just every now and again someone borrowed it when they had forgotten theirs, and that made customers happy.

[Tim McCulloch]

Nope.  But going the extra yard for a band may be noticed, and may get you repeat businesses....

And the fact the drummer has that $3 key does not guarantee he knows how to use it, or even if he knows how to use it, his idea of the target may be so wide of the mark he may be better off leaving the drums the way they came from the music store.  Point in fact: for my entire gigging career i carried a drum key, but to this day I have no idea what to do with it.  Just every now and again someone borrowed it when they had forgotten theirs, and that made customers happy.

I have a drum key in my tool box.  It's a loan-out item that used to get a lot more use than it does these days.  Most of the acts I mix come with really good back line techs and there's not time for me to deal with drum kit issues on the local support act.  But I'll gladly loan it to any drummer that needs it...

I'd hope that most of us in the Classic LAB don't have to do as much turd polishing as our colleagues in the Lounge.

For this discussion I'd be inclined to use the live drum mic to trigger samples that I can blend, change or not use at all.  Alesis D4, tucked in the gig bag somewhere... In the Ye Olde Analogue Dayz I'd take the direct out or insert send from the kick channel to the trigger input.

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