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Author Topic: Grouding issues and large pools of water  (Read 12060 times)

Scott Raymond (Scott R)

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Re: Phantom power and large pools of water
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2005, 06:36:19 pm »

Stephen B. wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 09:17

This is a very tragic thing that has happened.  I find it really hard to believe that this church would have had a bad wiring job considering their permanent worship leader is one of the giants of contemporary worship music.  How much more serious are the ramifications if the church was wired professionally?

Remember that right now here in Waco, we are primarily concerned with supporting the family and friends of the pastor with prayer and love.


When I saw Waco, my thoughts went to David C.  Is this who your refering to?  He's been here in the theatre.  Our prayers go out to everyone there.  

Clayton Luckie

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Re: Phantom power and large pools of water
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2005, 06:50:49 pm »

Scott R (Raymond) wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 17:36

Stephen B. wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 09:17

This is a very tragic thing that has happened.  I find it really hard to believe that this church would have had a bad wiring job considering their permanent worship leader is one of the giants of contemporary worship music.  How much more serious are the ramifications if the church was wired professionally?

Remember that right now here in Waco, we are primarily concerned with supporting the family and friends of the pastor with prayer and love.


When I saw Waco, my thoughts went to David C.  Is this who your refering to?  He's been here in the theatre.  Our prayers go out to everyone there.  


Yes, the remaining staff members are David Crowder (worship leader) and two other people.  Please pray for them as they take on a lot of extra stress and work.

cl
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Scott Raymond (Scott R)

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2005, 07:07:42 pm »

JimCreegan wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 08:06

Mark Smith wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 08:17

JimCreegan wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 02:27



unless one of the GFCIs failed.  

Nine volts on a wireless battery has probably only caused a tingle on the tongue of a sound tech with no voltmeter handy, nothing more.

JimC



As for me, it is much easier to limit anything around the baptistry to wireless.  It makes my life simplier to not have to worry about what could happen.

regards.


Exactly my point, and it seems a consensus.  

The other thing to think about though, is if there are baptismals or any pools, hot tubs, whatever, around that have mains power,  installed before the GFCI regulations they need to be updated.

JimC




Good point Jum.  We always use a wirless, even if they don't iintend on picking up the mic.  But the GFCI I'm not sure about.  Our church was built over 20 years ago and I'm guessing the heater doesn't have a GFCI.  With a baptismal service coming up soon that's a concern with this tragic reminder.  One could even speculate that baptismals that are drained after every use could be more suspect to corrosion than spa's and pools that are in service on a constant basis.

Steve Swaffer

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2005, 08:59:04 pm »

A lot of good comments so far.  I am a licensed master electrician and have been a "weekend warrior" sound tech for 12 years.  My suspicion would lie first with either a faulty heater or pump on the baptistry which would go undetected until someone provided a ground path-and a properly installed sound system would provide just that ground.  Baptistries are not mentioned in the code(but a few accidents like this and they might be-that is what drives the code), so depending on which section the inspector thought applied he might or might not require a GFCI.  I just looked at our baptistry today and like I expected it is all fiberglass/PVC so no grounds to trip a breaker in case of a fault.  Wireless mics are certainly a good idea, but in my opinion, a GFCI breaker on the baptistry equipment is morally if not legally required-there are too many other potential ground paths (like someone standing on a damp floor,etc, etc).  My wholesale cost for the proper breaker for ours is $154 vs around $30 for a standard breaker.  A lot of money until compared to the value of a life.  By the way, ours was installed by a professional (not me!)-don't assume they did it right!
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Marty McCann

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2005, 10:51:52 am »

A music dealer in Waco reported the following regarding this thread:

>>> "xxx xxxxxx - xxxxxxx" <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.com> 11/05/05 12:32PM >>>

The church was wired by members not contractors when it was converted to a church from a safeway.

The wiring was not up to code and caused there to be current
running through the baptistry.

The mike just acted as a ground.
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Ron Riedel

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2005, 10:53:31 am »

Steve S. wrote on Sat, 05 November 2005 18:59

...Wireless mics are certainly a good idea, but in my opinion, a GFCI breaker on the baptistry equipment is morally if not legally required-there are too many other potential ground paths (like someone standing on a damp floor,etc, etc).  My wholesale cost for the proper breaker for ours is $154 vs around $30 for a standard breaker.  A lot of money until compared to the value of a life.  By the way, ours was installed by a professional (not me!)-don't assume they did it right!


I agree completely. What does a baptistry cost to install, anyway? $5K-$10K at least? I don't see where an extra $125 for GFCI protection is all that expensive, and I can't imagine anyone doing an install without one. I wouldn't allow anyone to install a hot tub in my home without GFCI protection, either. I don't care what the code says.

As I've posted elsewhere on this board, we do worship outdoors in the summer. I power our system from a GFCI protected outdoor outlet, the main extension feeder cable has GFCI protection on the outlet boxes, and the equipment cart has additional GFCI protection on the internal outlets which distribute the power to the various components. That's 3 GFCI's in series, and I don't think that's overkill. We never play in the rain, but often the grass is wet from dew or overnight sprinklers, and I feel a lot more comfortable knowing the musicians are protected. I also won't allow anyone to use cords with the safety ground defeated, even indoors. There are no compromises or "we'll get by with it this one time" attitudes allowed when it comes to safety.

Ron

Ron
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2005, 11:16:55 am »

Marty McCann wrote on Mon, 07 November 2005 09:51

A music dealer in Waco reported the following regarding this thread:

>>> "xxx xxxxxx - xxxxxxx" <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.com> 11/05/05 12:32PM >>>

The church was wired by members not contractors when it was converted to a church from a safeway.

The wiring was not up to code and caused there to be current
running through the baptistry.

The mike just acted as a ground.



Thanks for the 911. Wireless would help but one could still get zipped getting out with wet feet on concrete floor.

I hope everybody out there reading this will check for GFIs and being to current code.

JR
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2005, 11:21:02 am »

Quote:

...The church was wired by members not contractors when it was converted to a church from a safeway.

The wiring was not up to code and caused there to be current
running through the baptistry.

The mike just acted as a ground.



That's what a number of us were speculating about--your source seems to confirm that the sound system in question was appropriately grounded. It still doesn't make it okay to put a grounded, wired microphone near water. Which you know, of course...

-Bink
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles
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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2005, 10:33:31 pm »

While the information from a local music store is very plausible, and may be well informed, it might be just as accurate as our guessing. Checking the church's websitwe reveals that the cause is as yet to be determined.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2005, 07:34:54 am »

Mike McCloskey wrote on Mon, 07 November 2005 21:33

While the information from a local music store is very plausible, and may be well informed, it might be just as accurate as our guessing. Checking the church's websitwe reveals that the cause is as yet to be determined.



In situations involving loss of life I would expect parties involved to be thoughtful about public statements that could be construed as assigning blame.

JR
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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2005, 07:34:54 am »


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