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Author Topic: Grouding issues and large pools of water  (Read 11107 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2005, 05:37:01 pm »

DTownSMR wrote on Thu, 03 November 2005 12:44

I'll show my ignorance here. Would placing the mixing desk (or whatever is connected to the jacks on the chancel/stage) on a GFI circuit prevent such a tragedy?

I believe we are all ignorant regarding what actually caused this specific fault condition therefore speculating about mitigating any one of the sundry possible faults might be ineffective.

If you are still using a hardwired mic (why?) around water, you need to insure all involved safety systems are the latest technology, in place and working. I won't repeat the sundry possible fault scenarios.


JR
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William Nexsen

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2005, 06:16:28 pm »

JR--You're right, of course.  I was way too quick posting my response to Bink's well thought out "fix", and didn't mean to imply that Bink wasn't aware of the impossibility of an absolute fix.  As you and others have pointed out, there is a constellation of things that, taken individually are each Ok and even within code; but when they all line up just right can lead to serious or even fatal consequences.
The scary thing is that even if we all communicate this event to all of clients who practice full immersion baptisms (and I  feel obligated to do just that) this will still happen again.  In a couple of years people will have forgotten...
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2005, 10:10:11 pm »

william wrote on Thu, 03 November 2005 17:16

JR--You're right, of course.  I was way too quick posting my response to Bink's well thought out "fix", and didn't mean to imply that Bink wasn't aware of the impossibility of an absolute fix.  As you and others have pointed out, there is a constellation of things that, taken individually are each Ok and even within code; but when they all line up just right can lead to serious or even fatal consequences.
The scary thing is that even if we all communicate this event to all of clients who practice full immersion baptisms (and I  feel obligated to do just that) this will still happen again.  In a couple of years people will have forgotten...


Wireless mics but not during thunderstorms on hill tops.

JR
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JimCreegan

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2005, 02:27:47 am »

DTownSMR wrote on Thu, 03 November 2005 13:44

I'll show my ignorance here. Would placing the mixing desk (or whatever is connected to the jacks on the chancel/stage) on a GFI circuit prevent such a tragedy?


Of course it would be absolutely illegal to have any power on the pool not on GFCI, so if everything the sound system was plugged into was also GFCI protected you would be safe, unless one of the GFCIs failed.  
Nine volts on a wireless battery has probably only caused a tingle on the tongue of a sound tech with no voltmeter handy, nothing more.

JimC
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Mark Smith

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2005, 08:17:20 am »

JimCreegan wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 02:27



Of course it would be absolutely illegal to have any power on the pool not on GFCI, so if everything the sound system was plugged into was also GFCI protected you would be safe, unless one of the GFCIs failed.  
Nine volts on a wireless battery has probably only caused a tingle on the tongue of a sound tech with no voltmeter handy, nothing more.

JimC


I think it is a stretch to say it is safe.  While under perfect circumstances it would work that way, here are a few things to think about.
1. If different electrical service entrances exist, different grounding systems may be in place (technically I argued against this one earlier, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on here, but thought I would bring it up)

2. It is only illegal if the building was built or renovated after the GFCI code came into existance (just like a house built 10 years ago is still "legal" if it doesn't have arc flash outlets in bedrooms).  

3. From my experience, there are too many people that "work on" things in most churches to run the risk of a GFCI not being installed correctly or a ground not being lifted by a well intentioned volunteer. Even the "professionals" occassionally make a mistake.

4. The lessons of this incident will fade over time.  While due dilligence may be used right now to double check everything on this, in a few years people will go back to the way they have always done things.  Example: How often do you test the GFCI outlets in your house?  Do you know they work or are installed right?

As for me, it is much easier to limit anything around the baptistry to wireless.  It makes my life simplier to not have to worry about what could happen.

regards.
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JimCreegan

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2005, 09:06:53 am »

Mark Smith wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 08:17

JimCreegan wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 02:27



unless one of the GFCIs failed.  

Nine volts on a wireless battery has probably only caused a tingle on the tongue of a sound tech with no voltmeter handy, nothing more.

JimC



As for me, it is much easier to limit anything around the baptistry to wireless.  It makes my life simplier to not have to worry about what could happen.

regards.


Exactly my point, and it seems a consensus.  

The other thing to think about though, is if there are baptismals or any pools, hot tubs, whatever, around that have mains power,  installed before the GFCI regulations they need to be updated.

JimC
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DTownSMR

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2005, 09:42:35 am »

Unless you have a fool proof plan as to how to eliminate every  possibility of ever having any and all mic (re: input) jacks within reach of any and all chords ever used, it's impossible to "limit anything around the baptistry to wireless". The best you can hope for is to limit the "planned" anything to wireless.
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in His service,
Scott

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2005, 03:06:49 pm »

Quote:

course it would be absolutely illegal to have any power on the pool not on GFCI


I am no electrician, but I think that a GFCI might not be required by code. A recept ocer the pool would have to be, but not the heater.
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JimCreegan

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2005, 03:12:58 pm »

Mike McCloskey wrote on Fri, 04 November 2005 15:06

Quote:

course it would be absolutely illegal to have any power on the pool not on GFCI


I am no electrician, but I think that a GFCI might not be required by code. A recept ocer the pool would have to be, but not the heater.


http://www.electrical-contractor.net/ESF/GFCI_Protection-Poo ls-Hot_Tubs.htm

It seems that you were right until recently.  I thought this went back a lot further.

JimC
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles

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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2005, 04:47:00 pm »

It wasn't THAT well thought-out.  Confused   ...just one more option for solving the problem.

If you have a wall plate XLR jack with a mic-level isolation transformer hidden inside and mounted near the pool of water then you'll have a safe, wired option on that one day when all of a sudden none of your wireless mics are working. Until then, use a wireless.

-Bink
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles
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Re: Grouding issues and large pools of water
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2005, 04:47:00 pm »


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