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Author Topic: DSP setup  (Read 15612 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2016, 01:50:40 pm »

I don't have the dsp with me now as the gear is in storage, but I want to go get it and work on it today/tomorrow.
My comment about the amps was based on the idea that you have decent quality amps.

But spending a chunk of money and hoping to get a big increase is a wasteful idea.

Yes there are better amps-but they are going to cost you.

I prefer not to bridge (if I can help it).

Your money would probably be better spend getting more subs and 2450s in the total "sound quality/output" game.

I say this because not only would you be able to get louder-but for a give SPL the speakers would be working less hard and the amps will not be pushed as hard-so they will not "run out of power supply" as easily.

Yes the 2450 is not considered to be a "great amp", but it does the job.

What you might consider is to rent an amp you are considering and see if it gives you the sonic quality you are expecting.

BE SURE to set the gains of the amps (for a particular output voltage) to be the same-or else any sort of testing is a waste of time.

Since there are no attack controls on y our limiter (as per your post), it is hard to say what the limiter is actually doing.  It is hard to suggest settings for that.

The problem I have with the xilica limiters is the maximum  attack time is 100ms.  This can work-but it would be nice if it could go a lot longer-especially for "unmanned" systems.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: DSP setup - amp gain
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2016, 02:14:35 pm »

BE SURE to set the gains of the amps (for a particular output voltage) to be the same-or else any sort of testing is a waste of time.

This! The fact is that when you bridge the 2 outputs of an amp by running them in series you get 6dB gain. If you could turn the input gain up 6dB the amp would sound the same not bridged, it just wouldn't have the same maximum output voltage, but it would have twice as many channels.

Mac
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2016, 02:40:02 pm »

I think I've entertained the idea of a new amp mainly on the protection aspect of a new amp and a slight increase in SQ & SPL. It's hard to keep telling myself it won't be a huge improvement when I really want there to be one. But yes I believe I have my own expectations under control and in the realm of reality.

I think that is probably the next step for the system. More subs & new DSP.

The problem I have with the xilica limiters is the maximum  attack time is 100ms.  This can work-but it would be nice if it could go a lot longer-especially for "unmanned" systems.

What do you mean by this? I was under the assumption that a faster attack time would help keep the transient power surges down. Wouldn't that be good for "unmanned" -meaning I'm not there to protect gear-? How does a longer attack time help things?

What would your recommendation for DSP be then if xilica can't do what'd you want keep in mind i'm probably only wanting to spend around 500-750?

I said the xilica because I figured it was slightly better spec wise than an ashley for the same price range; though i have not done all the research required to make any claims currently.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2016, 04:53:32 pm »

I think I've entertained the idea of a new amp mainly on the protection aspect of a new amp and a slight increase in SQ & SPL. It's hard to keep telling myself it won't be a huge improvement when I really want there to be one. But yes I believe I have my own expectations under control and in the realm of reality.

I think that is probably the next step for the system. More subs & new DSP.

What do you mean by this? I was under the assumption that a faster attack time would help keep the transient power surges down. Wouldn't that be good for "unmanned" -meaning I'm not there to protect gear-? How does a longer attack time help things?

What would your recommendation for DSP be then if xilica can't do what'd you want keep in mind i'm probably only wanting to spend around 500-750?

I said the xilica because I figured it was slightly better spec wise than an ashley for the same price range; though i have not done all the research required to make any claims currently.
A fast attack time can be a good thing-AS LONG AS it is not set to high.

If you "bury" the limiter-then the average power can get pretty high-but the peaks are not exceeding a certain level and the heating can get out of hand pretty quickly.

With a long attack time-set for 1/4 to 1/2 power, then the peaks will pass just fine-but when the average gets to high it will be reduced.

A typical comment would be "Well the amp never clipped"-Well yes-but your average level was way to high.

The xilica is limited to 100ms.  2 or 3 seconds would be better.

Some of the better amps have multi level limiters in them that allow for setting continuous/thermal and average or peak levels.  This is MUCH better-ASSUMING the parameter are set properly.

Since we are talking about Danley TH118s here-I "assume" it would be OK to recommend the Danley SC48 processor.

It has a MUCH better limiter section than the Xilica.

It does typical limiting (that has an attack time based on the high pass filter of the particular channel.  It also has an "overshoot" that is adjustable to limit how high the peaks can be above its setting.

In the advanced setting of this limiter there is also another limiter that is great for highs on multiway boxes.   You can adjust how much lower the limiting to be and the freq at which it reacts.  It also has an overshoot/peak adjustment.

This is great for protection of the highs.  A good example would be if you get high freq feedback-the limiter set for the woofer will not protect the HF driver.  But having the HF limiter kick in at some point 6 or 9 dB for example lower, the HF driver would be protected.

THere is also a thermal limiter that has and adjustable attack time (plenty long) and adjustable release time.

There is also an excursion limiter that you set the voltage and freq so that below that voltage the driver is allowed to extend as low as the crossover will allow. 

But if the voltage gets to high (where the driver will be flopping around) the excursion control limits the freq and level that the driver will be exposed to-while allowing higher freq to come through.

When these are combined you have a pretty powerful limiter.

It is just a little more expensive than the xilica (I think)

It would be more money than you are looking at-but if you don't buy new amps as well,   you might be fine.

It is a limiter that you could use for many years in the future.  There is a lot of power available in it.

It would be a more worthwhile investments than new amps.  And you could keep your current amps.



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Nathan Riddle

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2016, 05:49:43 pm »

A fast attack time can be a good thing-AS LONG AS it is not set to high.

If you "bury" the limiter-then the average power can get pretty high-but the peaks are not exceeding a certain level and the heating can get out of hand pretty quickly.

With a long attack time-set for 1/4 to 1/2 power, then the peaks will pass just fine-but when the average gets to high it will be reduced.

A typical comment would be "Well the amp never clipped"-Well yes-but your average level was way to high.

The xilica is limited to 100ms.  2 or 3 seconds would be better.

Some of the better amps have multi level limiters in them that allow for setting continuous/thermal and average or peak levels.  This is MUCH better-ASSUMING the parameter are set properly.

Since we are talking about Danley TH118s here-I "assume" it would be OK to recommend the Danley SC48 processor.

It has a MUCH better limiter section than the Xilica.

It does typical limiting (that has an attack time based on the high pass filter of the particular channel.  It also has an "overshoot" that is adjustable to limit how high the peaks can be above its setting.

In the advanced setting of this limiter there is also another limiter that is great for highs on multiway boxes.   You can adjust how much lower the limiting to be and the freq at which it reacts.  It also has an overshoot/peak adjustment.

This is great for protection of the highs.  A good example would be if you get high freq feedback-the limiter set for the woofer will not protect the HF driver.  But having the HF limiter kick in at some point 6 or 9 dB for example lower, the HF driver would be protected.

THere is also a thermal limiter that has and adjustable attack time (plenty long) and adjustable release time.

There is also an excursion limiter that you set the voltage and freq so that below that voltage the driver is allowed to extend as low as the crossover will allow. 

But if the voltage gets to high (where the driver will be flopping around) the excursion control limits the freq and level that the driver will be exposed to-while allowing higher freq to come through.

When these are combined you have a pretty powerful limiter.

It is just a little more expensive than the xilica (I think)

It would be more money than you are looking at-but if you don't buy new amps as well,   you might be fine.

It is a limiter that you could use for many years in the future.  There is a lot of power available in it.

It would be a more worthwhile investments than new amps.  And you could keep your current amps.

Yes, it is completely agreeable to suggest the SC48, because I asked what was YOUR suggestion knowing you work for Danley and wanting that answer ;) ;D

I was looking into the SC48 originally because of all of the nice limiting features it has and that it appears that virtually no other DSP compares. That and why not...all Danley system (even rebranded stuff) would be nice. Honestly the SC48 is the DSP I want to have as we're probably going with an all Danley system in the future. I was just under the assumption the SC48 was way out of our price range by a few thousand dollars! If you can get me a SC48 used, demo stock, whatever in even the 1k range i'd be okay with that simply because of how powerful it is!

I've tried to read your past limiting posts to other users and understand what you are telling others. I guess I hadn't though about using a peak limiter sorta like a rms limiter using the attack time set ultra long to prevent thermal damage. Very clever indeed!

Basically it sounds like you're saying a multi-band compressor/limiter right?

Those are all the limiters I want in a DSP or amp or whatever. I want to know when I send my gear out with someone else that it's protected from blowing up. (within reason obviously I can't protect it from everything with some DSP limiters...plugging things in backwards hf/lf etc.

Very true. Saving money in the amp department since it's not needed and splurging on future proofing our dsp sounds like the best option for me. Then I can properly setup the system with good limiters...etc.


Okay, now that I have a future plan. What would your suggestion be with the super simple limiters on the dbx?

What about the xilica (I have one on loan to test)?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2016, 06:08:40 pm »

Yes, it is completely agreeable to suggest the SC48, because I asked what was YOUR suggestion knowing you work for Danley and wanting that answer ;) ;D

I was looking into the SC48 originally because of all of the nice limiting features it has and that it appears that virtually no other DSP compares. That and why not...all Danley system (even rebranded stuff) would be nice. Honestly the SC48 is the DSP I want to have as we're probably going with an all Danley system in the future. I was just under the assumption the SC48 was way out of our price range by a few thousand dollars! If you can get me a SC48 used, demo stock, whatever in even the 1k range i'd be okay with that simply because of how powerful it is!

I've tried to read your past limiting posts to other users and understand what you are telling others. I guess I hadn't though about using a peak limiter sorta like a rms limiter using the attack time set ultra long to prevent thermal damage. Very clever indeed!

Basically it sounds like you're saying a multi-band compressor/limiter right?

Those are all the limiters I want in a DSP or amp or whatever. I want to know when I send my gear out with someone else that it's protected from blowing up. (within reason obviously I can't protect it from everything with some DSP limiters...plugging things in backwards hf/lf etc.

Very true. Saving money in the amp department since it's not needed and splurging on future proofing our dsp sounds like the best option for me. Then I can properly setup the system with good limiters...etc.


Okay, now that I have a future plan. What would your suggestion be with the super simple limiters on the dbx?

What about the xilica (I have one on loan to test)?
I don't know what the price is on the SC48, but I think it is not a bunch more than a 4x8 Xilica

Here is what I would "start with" on the DBX.

DISCONNECT the speakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Put a sine wave into the system around 50Hz.

Hook up the AC voltmeter to the terminals like you normally hook up the speakers.

Turn the threshold on the DBX all the way up.

Turn up the level until you read around 95V.

Decrease the threshold on the DBX until the volt meter reads 80V.

Turn off the sine wave and put in some music and see if the amp clips.  Speakers still disconnected.

Drive it hard.  If the clip lights on the amps are just barely lighting, you may be fine.

If they are flashing pretty good, then back down on the threshold until they stop flashing or just barely flash.

For "safety" you could back the threshold down another 3dB.

I don't have direct experience with the DBX overeasy-but I would start with it half way.

This is a STARTING setting.

A multi level  limiting would be a bit more precise-but a single level limiter can be up for debate.

If you are doing heavy dance type material-I would definitely go with the 3dB lower setting-just in case.

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2016, 10:31:23 pm »

I don't know what the price is on the SC48, but I think it is not a bunch more than a 4x8 Xilica

Here is what I would "start with" on the DBX.

DISCONNECT the speakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Put a sine wave into the system around 50Hz.

Hook up the AC voltmeter to the terminals like you normally hook up the speakers.

Turn the threshold on the DBX all the way up.

Turn up the level until you read around 95V.

Decrease the threshold on the DBX until the volt meter reads 80V.

Turn off the sine wave and put in some music and see if the amp clips.  Speakers still disconnected.

Drive it hard.  If the clip lights on the amps are just barely lighting, you may be fine.

If they are flashing pretty good, then back down on the threshold until they stop flashing or just barely flash.

For "safety" you could back the threshold down another 3dB.

I don't have direct experience with the DBX overeasy-but I would start with it half way.

This is a STARTING setting.

A multi level  limiting would be a bit more precise-but a single level limiter can be up for debate.

If you are doing heavy dance type material-I would definitely go with the 3dB lower setting-just in case.

Okay sounds good i'll work on this tomorrow while I clean the garage. I picked up a sub and a main and our qu-24 and the dbx.

I've always wanted to do a more scientific limiting on the subs, but I always felt that I needed a better set of limiter controls before bothering with it. the way it is setup now is that the amps can't clip because of the limiter...but that only stops excessive transients doesn't really help for the thermal stuff.

I've always been curious can ac volt meters measure voltage accurately at different frequencies? I always thought it needed to be a 60hz sine wave so that they would be happy and accurately measure the voltage.

You stated 'starting' off with the limiters. we're going to continue into the xover and delaying parts of dsp correct?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2016, 01:14:05 am »


I've always been curious can ac volt meters measure voltage accurately at different frequencies? I always thought it needed to be a 60hz sine wave so that they would be happy and accurately measure the voltage.

Most general purpose DMM/DVM are built to deal with 50/60Hz.  Many of the "true RMS" meters have a top end frequency response of 500Hz or so, the specification should be listed.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2016, 07:33:17 am »


I've always been curious can ac volt meters measure voltage accurately at different frequencies? I always thought it needed to be a 60hz sine wave so that they would be happy and accurately measure the voltage.

You stated 'starting' off with the limiters. we're going to continue into the xover and delaying parts of dsp correct?
As usual-it depends on the particular meter.  Some are good for very wide range.  My analog HP400s are good to 4Mhz or so.

The problem with "continuing"  is that without a measurement system to measure phase, it is going to be hard to "do it right".

There are some methods that can get you in the ballpark-but I have never used them-since I always look at phase.

So I don't have an opinion on a method I have not used or evaluated.

Many times with audio-close enough is just fine.  And then other times- it is better to be "a country mile off" if you can't be "dead monkey nuts on".
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: DSP setup
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2016, 09:47:21 am »

Could I do it with a free FFT based software? or is something like SMAART or SYSTune needed? What is your recommended tuning software?

I could use the trial of SMAART to do it properly I think?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 10:05:17 am by Nathan Riddle »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: DSP setup
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2016, 09:47:21 am »


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