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Author Topic: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?  (Read 46516 times)

Stephen Kirby

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2016, 04:50:53 PM »

Eugen, what I hear in your referenced track is compressor pumping in the bass.  The level of that low frequency drone is modulated by the fairly high kick drum.  Which reminds me of the disco '70s where a sub was a CV W bin that didn't really go that low and so producers found that hitting a 5 gallon ice cream carton with a tympani mallet gave a dead thump somewhere between 80 and 100Hz that would move the patrons in the discos given the system of the time.

That thump range is right where the T18s have a very strong peak.  And so that setup with them will sound like that recording where they accentuate the kick sound.  While the ported Yammies struggle to play the drone.  Which the EV's won't reproduce barely at all.

When you say that the referenced track sounds tighter on better subs are you talking about being in the same room with the same locations of the speakers?  Some of your problem may be your room.  There is a great article linked in the Basement from a top pro about the LF overhang or reverberation in some venues.

But bottom line, it really sounds like you are trying to get more low frequency extension than the gear can produce.  As Ivan has pointed out many time, roll off is not a brick wall.  Most any system can be made to produce very low frequencies.  It's just a matter of how loudly compared to the rest of the system's output.  If you put those Yamahas in a living room home theater and equalized the snot out of them, you could probably get 20Hz extension at levels suitable for watching TV.  But if you want to get 30-35Hz out of them at dance club levels it ain't gonna happen.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2016, 05:26:55 PM »

Eugen, what I hear in your referenced track is compressor pumping in the bass.  The level of that low frequency drone is modulated by the fairly high kick drum.  Which reminds me of the disco '70s where a sub was a CV W bin that didn't really go that low and so producers found that hitting a 5 gallon ice cream carton with a tympani mallet gave a dead thump somewhere between 80 and 100Hz that would move the patrons in the discos given the system of the time.

That thump range is right where the T18s have a very strong peak.  And so that setup with them will sound like that recording where they accentuate the kick sound.  While the ported Yammies struggle to play the drone.  Which the EV's won't reproduce barely at all.

When you say that the referenced track sounds tighter on better subs are you talking about being in the same room with the same locations of the speakers?  Some of your problem may be your room.  There is a great article linked in the Basement from a top pro about the LF overhang or reverberation in some venues.

But bottom line, it really sounds like you are trying to get more low frequency extension than the gear can produce.  As Ivan has pointed out many time, roll off is not a brick wall.  Most any system can be made to produce very low frequencies.  It's just a matter of how loudly compared to the rest of the system's output.  If you put those Yamahas in a living room home theater and equalized the snot out of them, you could probably get 20Hz extension at levels suitable for watching TV.  But if you want to get 30-35Hz out of them at dance club levels it ain't gonna happen.
And it could be the room modes that are stacking up at certain freq and locations that are "sucking out" the notes he is looking for.

There are MANY variables in sound and getting obsessed on one or looking for the "magic bullet" is often a waste of time and money.

You have to know WHICH BULLET to go looking after in YOUR PARTICULAR space.

What works in somebody elses room does NOT mean it is going to work in yours.  But it might.  It just depends on what the REAL problem is.

Until the problem has been identified-it is hard to say what the solution is. 
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Ivan Beaver
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2016, 08:27:19 AM »

Eugen, what I hear in your referenced track is compressor pumping in the bass.  The level of that low frequency drone is modulated by the fairly high kick drum.  Which reminds me of the disco '70s where a sub was a CV W bin that didn't really go that low and so producers found that hitting a 5 gallon ice cream carton with a tympani mallet gave a dead thump somewhere between 80 and 100Hz that would move the patrons in the discos given the system of the time.

That thump range is right where the T18s have a very strong peak.  And so that setup with them will sound like that recording where they accentuate the kick sound.  While the ported Yammies struggle to play the drone.  Which the EV's won't reproduce barely at all.

When you say that the referenced track sounds tighter on better subs are you talking about being in the same room with the same locations of the speakers?  Some of your problem may be your room.  There is a great article linked in the Basement from a top pro about the LF overhang or reverberation in some venues.

But bottom line, it really sounds like you are trying to get more low frequency extension than the gear can produce.  As Ivan has pointed out many time, roll off is not a brick wall.  Most any system can be made to produce very low frequencies.  It's just a matter of how loudly compared to the rest of the system's output.  If you put those Yamahas in a living room home theater and equalized the snot out of them, you could probably get 20Hz extension at levels suitable for watching TV.  But if you want to get 30-35Hz out of them at dance club levels it ain't gonna happen.

Yes you heard it well. There is a side chained compressor triggered by the upper kick, it pumps sub down at about 40-50hz. That "pumped in" short lasting sub will from some sub setups last short, be nicely in time with everyhing following it in the upper range. From some subs it will be bearely noticable and molded with the rest of the sub line, it will also sound late and sloppy. This is the main problem with the yamahas. You put that on top of the very bad reproduction in the 70-100hz area and everything below 100hz sounds as soft as a marshmallow. This also varietes depending on how loaded the sub is in the moment. This song from boddika that i linked, if you listened to it on the yamaha system, which i did many times, i use if for eq-ing subs sometimes.
You couldn't tell any of what you heard up there. Compressor pumping in sub following the kick? You' bearely notice it only if you are directly in front of the subs.
When we rented the other 2-way sub setup that i linked you a picture of a few days ago. 6 HOG horns with B&C 18-s and 6 horn loaded kickers running up to 150hz. Those things... you could tell exactly how it's produced and where the sub is pumping in.
It's now about the power, it's about the softness and the mudiness of the yamaha subs. Yes i am comparing the setup in the same place in the same club. The yamahas will definitley work better in a mono block because then when you are in front of the stage you stay in the power alley where sub is more clean. But they are still bad.
What i'm trying to do here is realise the technical explanation behind this to understand why they are bad. My opinion is that those drivers have a very bad "reactance factor" that we talked about. And i think that's what's called "transient response" in proper terms.

Yes, the T18's have a strong bump in that 80-120 hertz range which makes them really good "kickers". Especially with the rcf drivers i have inside them which are stiffer and more precise then the emminence ones. But aT18 by itself is terrible in low end extension. When you couple 4 of them together they can do some damage down to 40hz but that's about it.
So yes, they can't play the low end drone at all while the yamahas struggle to. So the setup that i mentiones where the T18's play 45-120 and the yamahas play 30-45 is basically trying to force more low end out of a system that wasn't designed for that. But it kind of works and i used to be quiet happy with the results. I just have to recone my T18's so i can do that again.
Tha yamahas will do some pressure down at 35-40hz, especially when low passed at 45 so they are not loaded with anything higher.
When you make them go only this low they play their role quiet decent because their sloppines is not that important down there. They just fill in some energy while the t18's play the upper parts with beat and transients in the sub lines. But when the yammie is a full range sub... soft soft soft and only soft. No punch, woof woof woof woof , never a bang...

Yes i understand that i can get the subs quieter and then eq them to go lower. That's quiet much what i do when i run only the yamahas. Force some 35-40hz sub out of them and get 50-60 area a bit quieter so you can hear the lower parts because the 50-60hz area is not overpowerng them. But here i was told that's a bad idea because i'm pushing them below the tunning frequency.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 08:33:01 AM by Eugen Jeličić »
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2016, 08:33:40 AM »

And it could be the room modes that are stacking up at certain freq and locations that are "sucking out" the notes he is looking for.

There are MANY variables in sound and getting obsessed on one or looking for the "magic bullet" is often a waste of time and money.

You have to know WHICH BULLET to go looking after in YOUR PARTICULAR space.

What works in somebody elses room does NOT mean it is going to work in yours.  But it might.  It just depends on what the REAL problem is.

Until the problem has been identified-it is hard to say what the solution is.

Of course. But the comparisons i'm talking about are different subs in the same place of the same club so...
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2016, 12:01:41 PM »


Yes i understand that i can get the subs quieter and then eq them to go lower. That's quiet much what i do when i run only the yamahas. Force some 35-40hz sub out of them and get 50-60 area a bit quieter so you can hear the lower parts because the 50-60hz area is not overpowerng them. But here i was told that's a bad idea because i'm pushing them below the tunning frequency.
As usual-it depends.

There is nothing wrong with doing (eq wise) what you describe-AS LONG AS you aren't pushing the system hard.

When you turn it up-THAT is when you are going to start running into possible trouble.

How much is "to much"?  When it starts to sound bad or speakers tear up.

Until that point- you are fine with it.
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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2016, 12:03:44 PM »

Of course. But the comparisons i'm talking about are different subs in the same place of the same club so...
The reason for my comment was that was not made clear to us.  You (if I am not mistaken-I could be wrong) only talked about the other system-not that it is in same physical place.

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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2016, 12:18:24 PM »

Well i run them of of yamaha p7000s amps that were designed to work with them. I do push them hard but never let them touch the clipping point. These amps are not powerfull enough to get these boxes to significant distortion. Plus, thay have done many parties set up like this. I had no problems of any kind with them.

Yes, i always talked about comparisons in the same room since most of my experience comes from this club. We also did a few parties in the smaller part of the club for about 150 people which is acousticaly a lot better then the larga space. I would use only to yamaha subs there. They did sound better overall but still soft and sloppy.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2016, 01:23:07 PM »

Well i run them of of yamaha p7000s amps that were designed to work with them.
This is a comment that gets said  A LOT, along with "Well this sub in the product line was "designed" to work with the others.

I say BS.

No amp is designed to work with a sub or vice versa.  If the power is complementary-then fine-but there was no "design" going into it.

The same for subs and tops of a product line.  Except for the physical size-looks etc, there is no "design" to make them work any better than another brand or product.

If it makes people "feel better", then OK.  But the word "design" is often misunderstood.
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Ivan Beaver
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2016, 01:28:02 PM »

This is a comment that gets said  A LOT, along with "Well this sub in the product line was "designed" to work with the others.

I say BS.

No amp is designed to work with a sub or vice versa.  If the power is complementary-then fine-but there was no "design" going into it.

The same for subs and tops of a product line.  Except for the physical size-looks etc, there is no "design" to make them work any better than another brand or product.

If it makes people "feel better", then OK.  But the word "design" is often misunderstood.

Yeah but this was sold as a kit in the store. It was a pair from yamaha. 2 subs and 2 tops with 2 p7000s amps. The power is of course matched.

However i find these yamaha subs work better with my old Peecker sound TVA 1800amps that are about the same power as the p7000s but have a much more powerfull power supply and a lot more condenser capacity so they keep more control over the drivers at low frequencies. They are 18 years old but were very expensive back in 97.

Peecker sound is a company from italy:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/athlon-64/IMG_2507_zpsmc56iglm.jpg~original

I have 2 of these. 2x900w at 4 ohms.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2016, 04:16:51 PM »

Yeah but this was sold as a kit in the store. It was a pair from yamaha. 2 subs and 2 tops with 2 p7000s amps. The power is of course matched.

However i find these yamaha subs work better with my old Peecker sound TVA 1800amps that are about the same power as the p7000s but have a much more powerfull power supply and a lot more condenser capacity so they keep more control over the drivers at low frequencies. They are 18 years old but were very expensive back in 97.

Peecker sound is a company from italy:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/athlon-64/IMG_2507_zpsmc56iglm.jpg~original

I have 2 of these. 2x900w at 4 ohms.
Just because it was sold as a "kit" does not mean it was "Designed" to work best together.

If you use that "thought process" then the amps would not work with other speakers.  Which of course is not true.

Or you would have to ask yourself-what speakers are Powersoft or Lab Gruppen amplifiers "designed" to work with?

The capacitors in the power supply have nothing to do with control over the low freq.  That is determined by the output section of the amplifier-NOT the power supply

All they are is the power supply reserve-which basically determines how much power they can supply for how long.

But some people confuse a "sloppy sounding" amplifier as not having control over the low freq.

But if the power supply is quickly running out of "gas", then it will sag and get "sloppy".  But the control over the speaker will be the same.

They are different parts of the circuit.

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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2016, 04:16:51 PM »


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