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Author Topic: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?  (Read 24471 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2016, 10:23:31 am »



I understand. So tehnicaly if i wanted to make a subwoofer directional down to 20hz i would need a 17 meters long concrete horn that wont let the sound penetrate to it's back. Then the wave would exit it only once it's fully formed.

The "fully formed" wavelength is another misconception that people often have.

I heard it said that you have to have a large room to get deep bass.

Really?  Then how do you get deep bass in a car (that is a pretty small room) or when you use headphones (that is a VERY small room)

People also say that a small microphone can't pick up bass?  Why?  But it seems strange that the mics that typically go the lowest have the smallest diaphragms.

YES-size matters-but only in certain areas.

Proper understanding is what really matters.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2016, 10:47:51 am »

Yes, i understand.I just wanted to check if i got it right.

I also heard the same claim. Did see no logics behind it. You can go as low as yours PA can go no matter what the size od the room is. I heard it, i felt it.

But there is a very interesting effect i don't understand. It's kind of like, no matter how good the soundsystem is, if you come to an electronic party in an average club with 4 good double 18's. Those subs can be the best subs in the world, go down to 20hz, push painfull amounts of SPL, have amazing transient response, the room can be treated, it's going to sound awesome.

But then again, that same sound, those same boxes, that exact same song at the exact same SPL. But this time in a football stadium with not 4 of those double 18's but a 140 of them. Is going to give a completly new level of a "WOW" effect.

Basically you are reaching the exact same thing but with so much more power.
I can't understand which parameter there is that makes that wow efect so big. Maybe it's the combination of the football stadium resonating extremly low + the beautifull reverb it gives?

I live in Croatia, i remember ultra europe 2014 when the RCF team from Italy brought 48 2X21 RCF TT56-A boxes. Yes, EDM music is low quality music in electronic world. But that was the best sub i have ever heard and felt in my life. It felt like earth was going to swallow the football stadium.

Last year they used an l'acoustics system which was a total mistake for that type of music. They pushed around 60 of those SB28 subs. It sounded like you are trying to run an 800ppl club topped up with a single 18 cab.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2016, 07:48:16 pm »

It is real easy to get "hung up" on particular pieces of gear.

People do it all the time.

But in MANY/MOST cases-it is how the particular is used that makes a HUGE difference.

You can have the identical system, but tuned by different people and it can sound very different.

Also different people "go for different things" when tuning.

Some is scientific-some is personal preference.

What works well for one type of music does not always work well for a different type of music.

Sometimes you have to ask yourself-what is the "purpose" of the sound system?

Is it to accurately reproduce what is going into it from the artist?

OR is it to have a sound of its own and becomes an "extension" of the incoming signal?

Unless you/yourself actually setup the system in question, it is hard to say that a particular piece of gear was the problem.

Sometimes it is REAL evident. Other times-it is not so easy.

And always remember that people will blame the gear LONG before they will acknowledge their own lack of skill/knowledge.

BELIEVE ME-I have run into MANY people over the years who could not mix a cake-yet they always blame the gear for the bad sound.

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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2016, 05:12:13 am »

Of course. I try my best to deliver not what i want but what the music requires.

But the specific subject of sub sloppines wasn't about what i want it was about the fact i want to get something out of the system but i maybee don't know how.
What i really want is to learn how to get as much precision from these yamaha subs as it is possible. Yes they are not good boxes, they are sloppy. But part of the problem might be my approach.
I will try what Art suggested.

Also, could you reflect on the club/stadium situation a wrote about above?
I'm really interested in what the difference parameter is.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2016, 05:48:32 am »

Of course. I try my best to deliver not what i want but what the music requires.

But the specific subject of sub sloppines wasn't about what i want it was about the fact i want to get something out of the system but i maybee don't know how.
What i really want is to learn how to get as much precision from these yamaha subs as it is possible. Yes they are not good boxes, they are sloppy. But part of the problem might be my approach.
I will try what Art suggested.

Also, could you reflect on the club/stadium situation a wrote about above?
I'm really interested in what the difference parameter is.

75 posts and you are looking for the "sound better" knob?  Or a magic placement that will make your mediocre subs sound like 100k worth of Danley's finest? 

It's a process, the process yields incremental gains and an occasional step backwards.  Unless something is totally messed up don't expect those increments to be very large.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2016, 06:08:47 am »

75 posts and you are looking for the "sound better" knob?  Or a magic placement that will make your mediocre subs sound like 100k worth of Danley's finest? 

It's a process, the process yields incremental gains and an occasional step backwards.  Unless something is totally messed up don't expect those increments to be very large.

Nope, i understand it's trial and error. That's what i do every single party.
But we hit a specific subject on the EQ approach. I might be seeing things quiet wrong. Art explained it quiet well.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2016, 06:26:14 am »

Nope, i understand it's trial and error. That's what i do every single party.
But we hit a specific subject on the EQ approach. I might be seeing things quiet wrong. Art explained it quiet well.

Yep, sounded like you were expecting a dramatic improvement.  Quite a bit of good data was shared in all these exchanges.  While I wasn't participating I was following along as were 100's if not 1000's of others.

Great learning experience for all.  Even the experts, by explaining the information they "sharpen their saw" so to speak.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2016, 07:03:13 am »

Yep, sounded like you were expecting a dramatic improvement.  Quite a bit of good data was shared in all these exchanges.  While I wasn't participating I was following along as were 100's if not 1000's of others.

Great learning experience for all.  Even the experts, by explaining the information they "sharpen their saw" so to speak.

Not really, drivers in those boxes are cheap emminence crap. You can't expect much out of them. But even if i don't get an improvement, the point is learning. I learned a lot during this subject.
And since the next party is tommorow and then a bigger one in 10 days. I still have to try out these setups and advices to give some real life feedback.

You never know enough when it's about sound. I think many sound engineers, at least local ones. Don't see understanding wave physics as that important. They think, im a FOH engineer, not an expert in electro acoustics.
But that's quiet wrong. You can't visualise how many of these things work withouth a good understanding of deeper,more basic things. That means you will never get to some conclusions, soultions and steps forward. 
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2016, 07:50:57 am »

Nope, i understand it's trial and error. That's what i do every single party.

In the early days it was a lot of "trial and error"

Believe me-I did my part-and learned quite a bit from it.

But today-you can get past a lot of the "trial" part.

We did not have the internet and the audio classes like we do today.  It is MUCH easier to share information than in the past.

Researching and understanding can go a LONG way.

HOWEVER-there is A LOT of misinformation out there.  So understanding what is actually happening will help you figure out what is good or bad.

On these forums at least-if any information is presented that is false-it WILL be corrected.  There are many knowledgeable folks on here.    Unlike other forums that are full of "feel goods" and people passing on myths.

Like damping factor factor.  Don't waste your time looking for an amp that has a higher damping factor to clean up your "sloppy" subs.

You could buy the most expensive amp out there with the highest damping factor-yet I highly doubt you could pick it out in a blind test-as long as everything was running in the linear range.

Just make sure you use large wire and keep it short.

But even then-if you ran longer lengths-it is not going to make as much of a difference as getting speakers that can do the job you need done.

I have run shows on very long speaker cables and nobody complained about the "sloppiness".

What you are doing is trying to take a small engine and put a bunch of "fixes" on it-instead of getting a good engine.

Yes you can make some small improvements-but nothing really worth while.


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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2016, 08:31:56 am »

Yes i will agree. That's why i'm here. To learn faster and get around some trial and error. And yes, i'm very suprised by this forum. I got used to getting tons of misinformations by people having less experience then you yourself most of the time i went on a forum to get advices. Here it's really different. I got so much great info in this subject.

Yes i'm very aware of that. When i red on what principal the damping factor works it kind of made sense but thain again... nothing is going to make a big cheap slow heavey sloppy driver move precise and fast.
Cosidering the price of these yamaha boxes they work quiet well. Subs are about a 1000 dollars each brand new. Those emminence drivers inside are some of the cheapest 18's money can buy. What can you expect from them...

Still, i will try all of what we talked about because i want to hear is there going to be a difference that i can hear. Many of those small things can make a noticable difference in the whole picture.

Last time we had a big techno name in the club we rented what you see in the picture (just withouth tops, we used our yamaha mid-hi boxes)

http://www.uesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/boca_zvuk.jpg

These boxes were cut, hog scoops: 30-65hz, kickers 65-150hz i think with a slope of 24dB/octave.
Pushed them with MC2 amps.

With them i could reach some actual sub, not molded energy. Amazing transient response, fantasticaly fast drivers. I think some B&C 18's.
I don't remember when i heard something so defined and sharp. They also had more then enough power to do whatever i wanted with them. And to cause 40hz needle feedback from the vinyl players on stage :D
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