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Author Topic: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?  (Read 22608 times)

Eugen Jeličić

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Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« on: February 03, 2016, 09:38:17 am »

So here is what i'm thinking about now. I'm working in an underground club that can fit about 800-900 people. I do sound for some live shows and for most of the electronic parties/events. Most of them are techno/dnb/dub parties.
The venue itself is a big concrete basement, needs some serous acoustical treatment but there is no money for it so the room itself sounds like shit. Loads of reverb, agressive sharpness in 1-5k range, huge sub coverage problems. Enough power from the PA but very uneven sub coverage.

The equipment i'm working with here is 4x yamaha cw218v subs and 6x yamaha c215v tops. 7X yamaha p7000s amps (2 for monitors), dbx 2231 EQ and a behringer x32. I use matrix sends on the behringer as a crossover and by doing that i can, if i want, have separated control over each box of the PA.

Here is the only picture i have right now, if needed i can take more: 

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12390892_1713073048924548_710351901504307360_n.jpg?oh=5d76f3f6a896e70690df5be245a1e52d&oe=57388C53

Now, when we do bigger parties we sometimes rent a sub array of a few hog scoops with some really good B&C drivers inside and with a few kickers on top of them. 2-way sub array, works really good compared to the sloppy soft sounding yamaha subs. However i still have to do most of the parties with the yamaha system.
I have found the best way to eq the system and tried the mono block setup with the subs that works better then saparated stereo blocks like in the picture.

However the room has big problems with getting rid of the sub once those boxes push it out. There is no bass traps, it takes a few seconds for the sub to dissapear from the room once you stop the subs, there is more sub in the backstage then in front of the stage and so on...

What i have been thinking about is trying to control this as much as i can. If i succeed in stopping sub energy from hitting the walls behind the stage and reflecting back into the room + if there is a way to control the way they push sub into the room i might be able to make sub more precise, tighter and avoid the shaking/resonating noises of some elements in the room.

I had 3 ideas so far.

1.
Standard cardioid mono block. Two boxes normal, 2 boxes pointing backwards, delayed with inverted polarity. This setup would give me absolute cancelation on the stage but i would loose some quallity and power in front witch i don't want since these 4 subs are barely enough to give me what i want in front. But i don't know what exactly i'm going to get with this setup so i will try it. 

2. Cardioid mono block where i have 3 boxes pointing outwards and one backwards. This will give me the simmilar result as the option one but with less lost in front of the subs.

3. 2/2 Cardioid but with all 4 subs standing upright and the outer 2 ones being turned around and set to cancel out what comees out the back.
So the subs would look like this:

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/12248049_1703600613205125_4654010210678630930_o.jpg

but with only the center two ones pointing forward. The reason i have been thinking about this setup is because i'm wondering if like this i can control what goes of to the left and right side of the array, not just the back ??

4.
Cardioid endfire array. Getting al 4 subs on stage but 2 behind 2 or even all 4 in line one behind one. With this i could get perfect cancelation on the most problematic frequency but not on the other ones. However i wouldn't loose nothing in front, compared to the normal mono block. So this might be the best option maybe. What do you think?

And if you have more ideas i'd love to hear them :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:41:01 am by Eugen Jeličić »
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Tim Steer

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2016, 11:02:36 am »

I'd try an endfire array of two subs, with one placed 1/4 wavelength behind the other at whatever frequency you want the most cancellation. Then delay the front sub back to the second. I'd advise against putting it on the stage though to avoid mechanical transmission to microphones, turntables etc, and colouration from the stage cavity itself, esp if a solid stage.

E.g. for 63Hz, you'd need 1.35m between the front edges of the two subs, and a delay of 4.0ms on the front sub.

Note for this to work properly (as with any cardioid sub array) you need to leave a decent amount of space around the array.
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2016, 11:07:31 am »

I'd try an endfire array of two subs, with one placed 1/4 wavelength behind the other at whatever frequency you want the most cancellation. Then delay the front sub back to the second. I'd advise against putting it on the stage though to avoid mechanical transmission to microphones, turntables etc, and colouration from the stage cavity itself, esp if a solid stage.

E.g. for 63Hz, you'd need 1.35m between the front edges of the two subs, and a delay of 4.0ms on the front sub.

Note for this to work properly (as with any cardioid sub array) you need to leave a decent amount of space around the array.

2 problems. First, i can't put an endfire configuration on the floor. It's going to be getting under the feet of people dancing and that's a big problem

No matter which solution i put on the floor, there is going to be a boundary about 10-20cm behind the subs. See the yellow/black edge of the stage? That's where the subs go when in mono block in front of the stage.

2. Even if they are on the stage, there is about maybe 3-4 meters of distance to the back wall of the stage. Is that enough for cancelation to happen?
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Tim Steer

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2016, 12:34:49 pm »

If it's acceptable to you to have the subs on stage then give it a go and see how it compares to your normal setup. My feeling is that they would take up too much space, annoy the musicians, potentially cause feedback issues and turn the stage (which from the photo looks like a wooden box of some sort) into one giant speaker.

Cardioid arrays are great in theory and work well outdoors in the free-field, but put one in a boxy reflective venue where room modes and reflections come into play, and tbh it's anyone's guess what will happen. I'd spend a couple of hours tinkering with different configurations and see how they perform.
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2016, 12:58:13 pm »

If it's acceptable to you to have the subs on stage then give it a go and see how it compares to your normal setup. My feeling is that they would take up too much space, annoy the musicians, potentially cause feedback issues and turn the stage (which from the photo looks like a wooden box of some sort) into one giant speaker.

Cardioid arrays are great in theory and work well outdoors in the free-field, but put one in a boxy reflective venue where room modes and reflections come into play, and tbh it's anyone's guess what will happen. I'd spend a couple of hours tinkering with different configurations and see how they perform.

Well the thing is, when they are stacked in stereo blocks the problem of sub on stage is massive. I doubt it can be much worse in an endfire configuration. The stage is a concrete box, slightly treated with some wood but not much. Right now it's definitley one big speaker considered how much sub is reflected on it. But wouldn't the cardioid endfire array have a point of solving a part of that problem? That's the main reason i'm planning to try this. To cancel out what goes on stage and possibly in the sides. There is not going to be mics on stage and probably only cd players, but even if we put that aside my logics tell me that the point of an endfire configuration would be getting a part of that sub off the stage.

The only question now is witch cardioid config is going to work best which i will try in 2 weeks when the next party comes.

My fears now are... if i do a normal cardioid setup below the stage, the concrete yellow/black wall will be just behind the subs which might prevent proper cancelation because there won't be enough free space behind them.

And i don't know what do i do if i want to try and control the direction and angle under which the sub is projected in front of the stage. 
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 01:15:14 pm »


Cardioid endfire array.
There is no such thing as a "cardioid endfire"

They are electonically different with different sonic and cancellation results.

If you do the math for a cardioid alignment- you will (or should) quickly realize that simply turning a "normal" cabinet around will NOT give you the spacing you need-except for freq that are higher than the sub range.

As with most things audio-SIZE matters. And with cardioid or endfire setups, you MUST space the cabinets properly and use the correct delay in order for it to work.

As soon as you start to change the delay OR the spacing, then the end result will ALSO change.  Sometimes not where you want it to.
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Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 01:57:46 pm »

There is no such thing as a "cardioid endfire"

They are electonically different with different sonic and cancellation results.

If you do the math for a cardioid alignment- you will (or should) quickly realize that simply turning a "normal" cabinet around will NOT give you the spacing you need-except for freq that are higher than the sub range.

As with most things audio-SIZE matters. And with cardioid or endfire setups, you MUST space the cabinets properly and use the correct delay in order for it to work.

As soon as you start to change the delay OR the spacing, then the end result will ALSO change.  Sometimes not where you want it to.

Isn't an endfire configuration just a type of a cardioid setup?

Yes of course i have to space them and delay them properly. That's not the question i asked.
I asked, if i take a normal cardioid array, one box pointing forwards, one pointing backwards, i invert the phase on the backwards pointing box and delay it as much as needed to get cancelation. And then put that array 15cm from a concrete wall, will the wall create problems and stop cancelation from occuring the way it should?
Do cardioid configurations need a certain amount of space behind them in order for waves to have enough space to cancel out? And if so, how much space is needed?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 03:37:47 pm »

Isn't an endfire configuration just a type of a cardioid setup?

Yes of course i have to space them and delay them properly. That's not the question i asked.
I asked, if i take a normal cardioid array, one box pointing forwards, one pointing backwards, i invert the phase on the backwards pointing box and delay it as much as needed to get cancelation. And then put that array 15cm from a concrete wall, will the wall create problems and stop cancelation from occuring the way it should?
Do cardioid configurations need a certain amount of space behind them in order for waves to have enough space to cancel out? And if so, how much space is needed?

Ideally, greater than 1/2 wave length.  I'm thrilled if I can get 1 metre or more in most venues.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Eugen Jeličić

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2016, 04:30:29 pm »

Ideally, greater than 1/2 wave length.  I'm thrilled if I can get 1 metre or more in most venues.

So if'm doing an endfire array and want cancelation at 50hz i should have idealy about 3.5-4m of free space behind the sub array?
If i'm doing a normal cardioid array and want cancelation all the way down to 35hz i need even more...
What happens if i place a normal cardioid array 15cm away from a wall, it won't work even close to the way it should?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Cardioid array in a 800ppl club. Possible options?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 04:57:11 pm »

So if'm doing an endfire array and want cancelation at 50hz i should have idealy about 3.5-4m of free space behind the sub array?
If i'm doing a normal cardioid array and want cancelation all the way down to 35hz i need even more...
What happens if i place a normal cardioid array 15cm away from a wall, it won't work even close to the way it should?

That is correct.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut
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