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Author Topic: Guitar Center Issues Continue  (Read 7777 times)

Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 10:51:12 pm »

So if a speaker array falls over and kills 3 people due to a "stoned" rigger???.....Just saying. Who do you think would win that lawsuit?

A company should have the right to screen it's employees. Don't like it? Don't work there.

+1  I spent quite a few years in a factory, often working in energized panels with forklifts running down aisles just a few feet away.  I have the right to a safe work place and the right to know the employee driving has some clue where he is at.

IMO opinion, if you don't like the way employers treat employees, become the employer and do it your way.  Its a free country.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2016, 01:37:08 am »

So if a speaker array falls over and kills 3 people due to a "stoned" rigger???.....Just saying. Who do you think would win that lawsuit?

A company should have the right to screen it's employees. Don't like it? Don't work there.
I would respectfully submit that any company does not have the right to violate the US constitution.

You could easily pass a drug test if you've not used drugs for (however many number) of days. And then use pot or whatever just before your "accident." So in your situation, you've violated their privacy to 'search' them, and they passed. They then choose to use illegal drugs later on, go on a show, and this goes down. Your company would be able to argue that they "took appropriate steps to avoid accidents." You can't fix stupidity. After this accident, you COULD do a drug or alcohol test, and the fact that the accident occurred would certainly be a probable cause.

(Either way, that's why I have insurance. I certainly won't agree with someone being drunk or under the influence of drugs while at work, but to unilaterally search someone for no other reason then to make sure they aren't doing something on their own time that isn't affecting their work is wrong.)

A company should have the right to screen it's employees. Don't like it? Don't work there.

… and this is why there's silly things like labor unions. An organization that can help protect employees from the overreach of a corporate structure that cares more about their profits then the health, safety, privacy and rights of their employees. Treat them how you'd like to be treated. Be respectful, fair, and honest in your dealings, and you don't need unions. Why should an employee have to quit because their employer doesn't care to play by the same rules that everyone else does?!? But alas, as you show, employers don't always see things that way.

-Ray
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2016, 02:25:44 am »

I would respectfully submit that any company does not have the right to violate the US constitution.

You could easily pass a drug test if you've not used drugs for (however many number) of days. And then use pot or whatever just before your "accident." So in your situation, you've violated their privacy to 'search' them, and they passed. They then choose to use illegal drugs later on, go on a show, and this goes down. Your company would be able to argue that they "took appropriate steps to avoid accidents." You can't fix stupidity. After this accident, you COULD do a drug or alcohol test, and the fact that the accident occurred would certainly be a probable cause.

(Either way, that's why I have insurance. I certainly won't agree with someone being drunk or under the influence of drugs while at work, but to unilaterally search someone for no other reason then to make sure they aren't doing something on their own time that isn't affecting their work is wrong.)

… and this is why there's silly things like labor unions. An organization that can help protect employees from the overreach of a corporate structure that cares more about their profits then the health, safety, privacy and rights of their employees. Treat them how you'd like to be treated. Be respectful, fair, and honest in your dealings, and you don't need unions. Why should an employee have to quit because their employer doesn't care to play by the same rules that everyone else does?!? But alas, as you show, employers don't always see things that way.

-Ray
the 4th amendment only applies to the government. i can restrict your song lyrics at my concert and i can search everyone that comes to see the show. you need to read what it bill of rights says and who it applies to. i can tell you what you can and cannot say in my house. it seems the only people that have a problem with drug test are druggies. what about airline pilots , truck drivers and bus drivers ? do you not want them to be drug tested to ? long time ago there were a few airline crashes caused by pilots that were high. about years ago a gate agent called security because the pilot , copilot and flight engineer reeked of alcohol as they past him. they were arrested and tested way beyond the limit. security video showed all 3 drinking heavily in an airport bar before takeoff. they might have crashed that 727 and killed everyone. no one has the right to be high on a job or while operating stuff in public.  here are 2 other drunk pilot reports , the 2nd is unrelated to the 727 incdent above > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_West_Airlines_Flight_556

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/27/us/prison-for-3-northwest-pilots-who-flew-jet-while-drunk.html
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 02:36:05 am by Jeff Bankston »
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2016, 06:39:36 am »

Quote
it seems the only people that have a problem with drug tests are druggies

Not so fast with the tar brush!
I am certainly not a "druggie" and I'm fed up with hearing the term "drug abuse" when referring to drug use, like pot for instance.
The is no difference between drug use and alcohol use (or abuse), both are the same. If drug testing is to be mandatory, alcohol needs to be included.
If you can't smoke a little pot in your off time, then no alcohol either. It's not like alcohol had no affect on work place performance and safety.
Just because pot is illegal (in some places) and alcohol is legal has no bearing on their effect in the workplace.
In fact, there are legally prescribed drugs that can have a negative effect in the work place as well. No testing for those.

As to the OP, this whole thing smacks of corporate over reach and needs to be reviewed.
To be forced to sign such a document AFTER you are employed on fear of dismissal is not acceptable.
And as for the statements  " be lucky you have a job" and "if you don't like it don't work there..."  ::)
Looks like we are slipping backwards in workers rights and you wonder why there are unions.

I shall put my soap box away now  ;)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 07:06:22 am by Keith Broughton »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2016, 10:52:56 am »

Not so fast with the tar brush!
I am certainly not a "druggie" and I'm fed up with hearing the term "drug abuse" when referring to drug use, like pot for instance.
Colo supreme court ruled that employers can fire for drug (pot) use.
Quote
The is no difference between drug use and alcohol use (or abuse), both are the same. If drug testing is to be mandatory, alcohol needs to be included.
Unless cannabis sativa has changed, as I recall they were different. If anything I hear the modern weed is significantly stronger, than the rope we got to smoke back in the 60's (marijuana is a hemp plant that was used to make rope during WWII).

Pot seemed significantly different in the after-effects. While I can only cite anecdotal experience from a hand full of different drugs, most had a pretty apparent "high" followed by a crash that reverses the high effect.  After LSD and Marijuana you don't have a discernible crash or hangover, just slowly become normal again (some argue you never become normal again after LSD  :o ). I don't have scientific evidence for this but the decay of the marijuana high seems exponential, so the morning after a hard night of partying you might still be 10% impaired. You can be very functional with that 90% (I was) but i wouldn't want employees driving forklifts, or pilots flying airplanes with less than 100% capability. (I repeat I don't have a scientific citation for this so I may be completely wrong, but I've been looking for research for years. maybe there's more now.) In my judgement pot is probably safe for weekend use, with an extra day for recovery, but I question it for every day use. 
Quote
If you can't smoke a little pot in your off time, then no alcohol either. It's not like alcohol had no affect on work place performance and safety.
The physiological effects of alcohol are pretty well known. The airline industry has appropriate rules for clearance time before operating heavy machinery. I agree pot should be treated similarly (based on it's individual characteristic).
Quote
Just because pot is illegal (in some places) and alcohol is legal has no bearing on their effect in the workplace.
Agreed. The drugs (and alcohol is a drug too) must be evaluated based on their individual characteristics.
Quote
In fact, there are legally prescribed drugs that can have a negative effect in the work place as well. No testing for those.
I suspect modern drug testing does look for oxy and other abused modern prescription drugs. If they don't they surly should.   
Quote
As to the OP, this whole thing smacks of corporate over reach and needs to be reviewed.
To be forced to sign such a document AFTER you are employed on fear of dismissal is not acceptable.
I've had to sign employment agreements after the fact, one time a year after I was first hired. it wasn't about drugs or arbitration, but that's a calculus you make to get or hold a job. It is a negotiation, not a right.   
Quote
And as for the statements  " be lucky you have a job" and "if you don't like it don't work there..."  ::)
Looks like we are slipping backwards in workers rights and you wonder why there are unions.
I wonder why government workers need unions? I am familiar with the history and unions served a purpose in the west, last century. If anything I worry about workers in the 3rd world factories where most abuse occurs these days (IMO). Not sure unions are the simple answer for them either. It seems like publicity that exposes factory abuse associated with high profile western brands can have a lot of influence. The publicity surrounding Apples primary contract manufacturer (Hon Hai) has put a lot of pressure on them to improve the workers situation. Modern trade pacts often include clauses that attempt to improve the lot of foreign workers (there is a subtext as making foreign manufacturing more expense helps domestic workers keep jobs). 
Quote
I shall put my soap box away now  ;)
Its all relative, and we worry about our own self-interest. Some identify with workers, some with employers. As a society we must learn how to deal with legalized marijuana (still illegal at the federal level). I agree that it is a relatively harmless intoxicant, while IMO not really a work compatible drug like nicotine*** or caffeine. Alcohol use with appropriate detox time seems acceptable, pot IMO perhaps a little extra detox time . If the detox slope is as I suggest, perhaps higher resolution testing could quantify amount of THC in the blood stream, with pass/fail based on how much, not unlike DUI testing for blood alcohol. I suspect the zero tolerance is because we don't completely understand this intoxication tail.

 JR

PS I've seen workers I wouldn't let drive a forklift when they are stone sober.

***nicotine is a remarkable worker bee drug that can actually improver performance on some menial work tasks. Too bad smoking can kill you, or employers would probably hand out free cigarettes in factory break rooms.   ::)
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2016, 11:12:50 am »

the 4th amendment only applies to the government.

Weird. The 4th Amendment, as far as I can see in the version I just read, does not use the word "government" in it at all.

i can restrict your song lyrics at my concert

Sure thing. Esp if you have a contract with a group. You're the employer, they're your employees, you have the right to dictate their job performance within the terms of the contract.

...and i can search everyone that comes to see the show.

As a lessor of a privately owned property, you are certainly within your rights to post and enforce a search policy designed to restrict certain items or persons-of-religions from entering your show.

However, neither of those apply to this situation!

i can tell you what you can and cannot say in my house.

You could, but I wouldn't comply with someone telling me what to say and how to think. That's oppression. Regardless of that, I don't think you'll be inviting me over to your house any time, so the point is moot. ;)

it seems the only people that have a problem with drug test are druggies.

I am not a drug user.

long time ago there were a few airline crashes caused by pilots that were high. about years ago a gate agent called security because the pilot , copilot and flight engineer reeked of alcohol as they past him. they were arrested and tested way beyond the limit. security video showed all 3 drinking heavily in an airport bar before takeoff. they might have crashed that 727 and killed everyone. no one has the right to be high on a job or while operating stuff in public. 

Thank you for making my point for me. You are absolutely correct, and that is what I said before. In your situation mentioned, the pilot/co-pilot could have passed a pre-employment screening with flying colors -- and this incident would have still happened! The gate staff and TSA correctly identified clear signs of intoxication (belligerent, smell, posture) and took appropriate actions to avoid a major problem-- exactly what they're there to do! Because these clear signs of intoxication were present (just like with a traffic stop) they had probably cause to perform a BAC test on them-- and you'll note that they were still over the limit 3 hours after they'd arrived to work that day. In fact, they were:
- Over the State of Florida's limit for being intoxicated (.08)
- Over the FAA's limit for air crew intoxication (.04; which in my opinion is .04 too high)
- In violation of America West company policy prohibiting alcohol intake within 12 hours of flying (more restrictive then the FAA's guidelines of an 8-hour window)

Court reports show, in fact, that they opened the $142 bar tab at 10:30pm the previous evening, and stayed at the bar until they were kicked out at 4:45am -- and their flight was scheduled to depart at 10:38AM!

Pre-employment drug tests do nothing other then to tell you what that person might have done within the last 24 hours (alcohol test) or 30 days (thc). What's important is a person's frequency and whether or not they're going to show up to work while drunk or stoned-- and you can't easily ask someone about that without dealing with self incrimination. I know this is a shitty position for an employer to be faced with (and I hire people, so I know the scope of the land) -- but that's reality. In my position, I would rather someone be upfront and honest with me, as I DO have a policy of not drinking/using drugs on the job, and that immediate termination will occur for that. If someone uses pot or whatever at home, that's their deal. Just don't be high at work.

-Ray
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2016, 11:16:26 am »

A well thought out and comprehensive reply John.
While I understand you, and others, have had to sign documentation after employment started (that doesn't make it right), I still think forcing employees to sign away their ability to litigate effectively by threatening them with dismissal after employment has started is unsatisfactory behaviour.
I don't necessarily agree that unions are the best solution, but behaviour like this opens the door for them.
While I sympathize with employer problems, the employers can't have all the power.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 11:19:50 am by Keith Broughton »
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2016, 11:20:05 am »

Yeah, we have it so bad here in the US. Life is so much better in North Korea where they don't step on your rights.  ::)
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2016, 12:27:12 pm »


Yeah, we have it so bad here in the US. Life is so much better in North Korea where they don't step on your rights.  ::)

North Korea is closer than you might think....


http://usuncut.com/politics/freedom-kids-dance-routine-encapsulates-the-terrifying-mediocrity-behind-trumps-rise/


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Ray Aberle

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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2016, 12:36:56 pm »

Yeah, we have it so bad here in the US. Life is so much better in North Korea where they don't step on your rights.  ::)

So by your logic… you would support, say, every vehicle in the US being required to have an ignition interlock installed so it is impossible to operate the vehicle if you've had anything to drink? What about a traffic checkpoint to require all vehicles searched for alcohol, and verify the ages of the occupants to ensure they're of age?

It's the same reasoning here. You can't run around thinking that EVERYONE needs to be constantly proving that they are innocent of any crimes. You're snarkily saying that "life is better in North Korea" -- you think that big business (or the government) has an open right to search anyone under the presumption that they "could" be doing something illegal? What if it's not illegal, just against company policies?

Ray
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Re: Guitar Center Issues Continue
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2016, 12:36:56 pm »


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