ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00  (Read 19216 times)

Chris Penny

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 08:00:41 pm »

Hey Dan

Sounds like it may be time to get in some help to sort our your systems and maybe get some training?  Have you thought about getting in a sound consultant/contractor to help you sort things out? Where is Australia are you? 

Sucks a bit with the Wirless Mics in Aus, but is has been coming - just have to look at what has happened in the US. We have one channel which we will have to replace it when we lose that bandwidth. It is sad to see so many less reputible dealers still selling gear in that band over here despite it being pretty clear we will lose the 700-Low 800 MHz Band.

Before you look at getting any new mixer (digital or analog) I would be doing a review of you sound system and working out where the church wants to go with it. Going from a Box Mixer to a digital desk is a big step especially if you don't have a dedicated sound person.

Edit: Typos
Logged
Sound Guy
Gymea Baptist Church
Sydney, Australia
www.gymeabaptist.org.au

Dan Andrews

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2011, 11:34:24 pm »

Thanks Chris,

Hey Dan

Sounds like it may be time to get in some help to sort our your systems and maybe get some training?  Yes I have tried, but it's hard to find anyone that's any good, and inexpensive.

Have you thought about getting in a sound consultant/contractor to help you sort things out? Where is Australia are you?  Sydney area.

Sucks a bit with the Wirless Mics in Aus, but is has been coming - just have to look at what has happened in the US. We have one channel which we will have to replace it when we lose that bandwidth. It is sad to see so many less reputible dealers still selling gear in that band over here despite it being pretty clear we will lose the 700-Low 800 MHz Band. Ouch!

Before you look at getting any new mixer (digital or analog) I would be doing a review of you sound system and working out where the church wants to go with it. Going from a Box Mixer to a digital desk is a big step especially if you don't have a dedicated sound person. Yeah, but that's me and I seem to need a lot more control, and clarity.

Thanks again for your input. 

All the Best, Dan

Edit: Typos
Logged

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2209
  • Marietta, GA
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2011, 09:48:02 am »

Yes I have tried, but it's hard to find anyone that's any good, and inexpensive.
Is that any different than for anything else?  And isn't it a bit ironic to say that you can't find and good, inexpensive consulting after you said that you trust the free advice from a music store that makes their living by selling you gear?
 
Maybe you could find someone at another area church that would be willing to help.  Also, don't underestimate the potential value of a 'third party' in dealing with situations like the ministers dynamics, whether deserved or not, people often listen more to the opinion of an outside party for whose services they are paying and especially someone who is not trying to pay for their time by getting you to purchase equipment from them.
 
Can you post any pictures of the existing system and provide further descriptions of the existing installation and equipment components?  Maybe it will help others undertsand the situation better and jusy maybe someone will see something that others have overlooked.
 
Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.  So when someone offers a product at a fraction of the price of other offerings it seems reasonable to wonder how they are doing that.  In the case of the StudioLive, PreSonus clearly made the decision to eliminate or limit a number of capabilities that they felt were not critical in many of the intended applications, such as moving faders.  That is simply something one has to assess in terms of how it potentially relates to a particular application.  In the case of the Phonic mixer, I have yet to see any reference to breakthough technology or approaches, so how do they offer it for such a low cost?  It seems they have to cut somewhere and while the small touch screen, single wheel to adjust any/all parameters, limited internal routing options and the USB/FireWire card being an option are obvious examples, most of the reviews and comments I can find seem to be home studio type applications and I'm curious to hear some reports from 'in the field' regarding the user friendliness and reliability/durability to see if any of the compromises made impact those aspects that can be more relevant in live sound applications. 
Logged

Dan Andrews

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2011, 02:03:05 am »

Hi Brad

Is that any different than for anything else?  And isn't it a bit ironic to say that you can't find and good, inexpensive consulting after you said that you trust the free advice from a music store that makes their living by selling you gear?
Well as I said, I took that advice 5 years ago when I frist bought the gear,  hopefully I have learned a few things since then. 

As to inexpensive, I have to pay for things myself, and I don't make Huge Dollars.


Maybe you could find someone at another area church that would be willing to help.  Also, don't underestimate the potential value of a 'third party' in dealing with situations like the ministers dynamics, whether deserved or not, people often listen more to the opinion of an outside party for whose services they are paying and especially someone who is not trying to pay for their time by getting you to purchase equipment from them. 

Yes, point taken.

 
Can you post any pictures of the existing system and provide further descriptions of the existing installation and equipment components?  Maybe it will help others understand the situation better and just maybe someone will see something that others have overlooked. 

I haven't worked out how to post pictures.
 


Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.  So when someone offers a product at a fraction of the price of other offerings it seems reasonable to wonder how they are doing that.  In the case of the Studio Live, PreSonus clearly made the decision to eliminate or limit a number of capabilities that they felt were not critical in many of the intended applications, such as moving faders.  That is simply something one has to assess in terms of how it potentially relates to a particular application.  In the case of the Phonic mixer, I have yet to see any reference to breakthrough technology or approaches, so how do they offer it for such a low cost?  It seems they have to cut somewhere and while the small touch screen, single wheel to adjust any/all parameters, limited internal routing options and the USB/FireWire card being an option are obvious examples, most of the reviews and comments I can find seem to be home studio type applications and I'm curious to hear some reports from 'in the field' regarding the user friendliness and reliability/durability to see if any of the compromises made impact those aspects that can be more relevant in live sound applications. 


Check out this web site http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2764166-Phonic-Digital-Mixer-16  For their review.

Thanks Brad for your interest.

All the Best, Dan
Logged

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2209
  • Marietta, GA
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2011, 08:13:57 am »

Check out this web site http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2764166-Phonic-Digital-Mixer-16  For their review.
Dan, look back at my earlier comments, I read the review but...
 
  • It seems to be a new product test bench review.  Lots of objective information and opinion but I can't see where it addresses actual use 'in the field', much less after some time.
  • The audio samples have limited value without the dry signal for comparison.  I did not like what I heard in the chorus, phaser, tremolo and flanger samples but don't know if that is a factor of the clip used or the processing applied.
  • For me the review lost all credibility in the first couple of sentences.  Stating that digital consoles never really took off does not reflect the reality that digital consoles from Yamaha, Digidesign/Avid, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, PreSonus, DiGiCo, Innovason, SSL, Midas and others have indeed 'taken off' in recording and especially live sound applications.  And noting only the Mackie D8B and Panasonic DA7 as examples of digital console not only reflects a focus on studio applications but also seems to overlook what has happened in the 13 years or so since those two consoles were introduced.  I actually found myself double checking the review date to make sure it was not somehow a very old review and was quite surprised to find it was just a couple of months old.
Craig Anderton is a very accomplished individual in the recording arena, but the referenced review seems to have limited relevance to live sound.  Based on this review and some of Mr. Anderton's past reviews on Harmony Central, as well as what seems conspicuous in not being reviewed, I also get the sense that the manufacturer has a hand in the reviews, at least in initiating them and perhaps indirectly in the content.
 
I also noted your question and the response regarding the JBL MSC device and the response you received seems to reflect serious misunderstandings regarding room acoustics, the differences between studio and large room acoustics and the differences between studio and live sound applications.  In short no, it will not work for your church unless your church is like a studio in terms of the size, layout and acoustics, if you use the related JBL studio monitors and if you only care how it sounds at one location regardless of whether that may be to the detriment of other listener locations.
Logged

Frank DeWitt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 993
    • LBP DI Box
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2011, 10:29:49 am »

Cheep or free training is tough, but it is possible.  One approach, attend some small Christian concerts in your area until you find one with great sound.  I say small concerts because you want ones that are using a local sound guy.  When you find one, after the concert strike up a conversation with the sound guy.  Ask if you could help him load in his next concert and then watch and learn during rehearsal (Disappear during the concert) then reappear for the load out.

That sound guy has a new best friend and he will tell you all he knows.  Grin  I did this when I wanted to find out about a new board and it worked out well.  When I needed lighting for our church I called up a larger church and asked for the lighting guy and invited my self over.  He ended up coming to my church to check it out and made suggestions.  (People love being asked for advice.)

I do try to give back when I actually know the answer.  I hosted a geek get together at my church this spring and invited this forum and churchsoundcheck.com.  I just said bring something you like with you.  this started all sorts of conversations and I learned a lot.

Frank
Logged
Not to Code

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16272
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2011, 11:11:31 am »

[
Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.  So when someone offers a product at a fraction of the price of other offerings it seems reasonable to wonder how they are doing that.  In the case of the StudioLive, PreSonus clearly made the decision to eliminate or limit a number of capabilities that they felt were not critical in many of the intended applications, such as moving faders.  That is simply something one has to assess in terms of how it potentially relates to a particular application.  In the case of the Phonic mixer, I have yet to see any reference to breakthough technology or approaches, so how do they offer it for such a low cost?  It seems they have to cut somewhere and while the small touch screen, single wheel to adjust any/all parameters, limited internal routing options and the USB/FireWire card being an option are obvious examples, most of the reviews and comments I can find seem to be home studio type applications and I'm curious to hear some reports from 'in the field' regarding the user friendliness and reliability/durability to see if any of the compromises made impact those aspects that can be more relevant in live sound applications. 

While I don't disagree with the general thrust of your comments, there are other important costs that go into product pricing that need to be considered.

AFAIK Phonic started out as a contract manufacturer building gear for yamaha so they surely know how to build stuff inexpensively. Kind of like an ice berg there are lots of product costs that aren't in plain view. Phonic surely isn't carrying the sales and support overhead of a Yamaha. Probably don't advertise as much or as expensively. Smaller trade show footprint, etc.

I believe Yamaha has the capability to roll their own dedicated ICs, but AFAIK they also sell some of the special ICs to the broader market to recoup some of those development costs. Phonic surely isn't investing in dedicated ICs

I would expect less comprehensive (friendly) human factors in the cheaper product software, but the hardware may generally be OK. Of course it is hard to separate the software from hardware in embedded applications like that.

Listen to what other users say, not self appointed experts (like me), or reviewers from other market categories who don't actually use it in a real application.

I know that I don't know, but can't dismiss it purely on price, while you should appreciate that is always a gamble, vs the more expensive established product.

JR
Logged
Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

Dan Andrews

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2011, 12:05:03 am »

Hi Brad,

Dan, look back at my earlier comments, I read the review but...
 
  • It seems to be a new product test bench review.  Lots of objective information and opinion but I can't see where it addresses actual use 'in the field', much less after some time.
  • The audio samples have limited value without the dry signal for comparison.  I did not like what I heard in the chorus, phaser, tremolo and flanger samples but don't know if that is a factor of the clip used or the processing applied.
  • For me the review lost all credibility in the first couple of sentences.  Stating that digital consoles never really took off does not reflect the reality that digital consoles from Yamaha, Digidesign/Avid, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, PreSonus, DiGiCo, Innovason, SSL, Midas and others have indeed 'taken off' in recording and especially live sound applications.  And noting only the Mackie D8B and Panasonic DA7 as examples of digital console not only reflects a focus on studio applications but also seems to overlook what has happened in the 13 years or so since those two consoles were introduced.  I actually found myself double checking the review date to make sure it was not somehow a very old review and was quite surprised to find it was just a couple of months old.
Craig Anderton is a very accomplished individual in the recording arena, but the referenced review seems to have limited relevance to live sound.  Based on this review and some of Mr. Anderton's past reviews on Harmony Central, as well as what seems conspicuous in not being reviewed, I also get the sense that the manufacturer has a hand in the reviews, at least in initiating them and perhaps indirectly in the content.

Thanks for that, very interesting.
 
I also noted your question and the response regarding the JBL MSC device and the response you received seems to reflect serious misunderstandings regarding room acoustics, the differences between studio and large room acoustics and the differences between studio and live sound applications.  In short no, it will not work for your church unless your church is like a studio in terms of the size, layout and acoustics, if you use the related JBL studio monitors and if you only care how it sounds at one location regardless of whether that may be to the detriment of other listener locations.

Yes, my frist thought was that the idea of the "JBL MSC" sounds fantastic, but that was in a recording studing setting, Hence my question would it work in our small church.  Of course using the speakers we already have.
Logged

Dan Andrews

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2011, 12:13:38 am »

Hi Frank,

Cheep or free training is tough, but it is possible.  One approach, attend some small Christian concerts in your area until you find one with great sound.  I say small concerts because you want ones that are using a local sound guy.  When you find one, after the concert strike up a conversation with the sound guy.  Ask if you could help him load in his next concert and then watch and learn during rehearsal (Disappear during the concert) then reappear for the load out.

That sound guy has a new best friend and he will tell you all he knows.  Grin  I did this when I wanted to find out about a new board and it worked out well.  When I needed lighting for our church I called up a larger church and asked for the lighting guy and invited my self over.  He ended up coming to my church to check it out and made suggestions.  (People love being asked for advice.) 

That's a very interesting idea, and one I haven't considered before.

I do try to give back when I actually know the answer.  I hosted a geek get together at my church this spring and invited this forum and churchsoundcheck.com.  I just said bring something you like with you.  this started all sorts of conversations and I learned a lot.

Another good idea, thanks for your suggestions.

All the best. Dan

Frank

Logged

Arnold B. Krueger

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
Re: Has anyone used the Phonic Summit Digital Mixer? around $2000.00
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2011, 01:41:10 pm »

Back to the original topic, I don't believe that PreSonus and Phonic manufacturer on a chip/component level, have manufacturing or technical resources or sell in quantities that would give them some distinct advantage over Yamaha and others.

I don't know that anyone would need to manufacture or develop new chips to produce a competitive digital console.

Quote
So when someone offers a product at a fraction of the price of other offerings it seems reasonable to wonder how they are doing that.

Digital consoles are basically a computer whose peripherals include a control surface,  analog<-> digital converters, and analog buffer/amplifiers.  There is no lack of off-the-shelf parts to perform these functions. Many of these parts are continually improving in terms of price/performance. 

The functionality of products such as SAC demonstrate these facts. The remaining component is software. The cost of developing software is also improving.

Therefore, all that is required to offer a new digital console product at a fraction of the cost of a legacy product whose price has reamined stable is to simply wait a while and develop it.

The big hole in my story to this point is patent protection. I believe that there are a number of patents that are currently protecting  IP related to digital consoles. According to my estimates, many patents relating to digital consoles are about to expire. Until that happens, the owner of the patents can *tax* any competitive product pretty heavily.

After the basic patents relating to digital consoles expire, anybody who is sufficiently skilled and so inclined should be able to cut digital console prices very agressively. I suspect that many are entering this market now in order to stake out a position in this future market.



Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.046 seconds with 23 queries.