Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Richard Penrose]

Thanks guys. I think I'm pretty set on the KW181's but am gonna hang on for NAMM to see if there's anything new released. One other option I'm considering is changing my whole system for  the smaller but high end Shermann Audio Blue Rig :-

http://www.shermann.com/Data-Colours/BLUE-Rig.pdf

These use Fatial Pro drivers and Hypex amps throughout and weigh a lot less than my current DXR15 and EV ELX118p's. If these can at least match the output of my current system (preferably have a little more) yet weigh a lot less and hopefully sound a lot better then I'll go with this. If not then I'll be getting the KW181's!

[Cailen Waddell]

Not that any speakers marketing copy is ever great, but that Shermann cut sheet seems to be full of some specifically dubious horse hockey...   I especially like the part where they imply a neodymium motor is the only kind of compression diver that allows for great horizontal and vertical dispersion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Luke Geis]

The KW181's are pretty heavy hitters, but I am still not a fan of them. They sound alright, but don't get all that low. Getting low isn't such a huge deal, but they are -6db at 40hz, which leaves me guessing their -3db point is closer to 45hz. Again not a deal breaker, but that is the only reason I think they get as loud as they do? The JBL PRX-718 gets within 1db of the KW and goes down to 35hz at -3db. That is pretty loud and pretty low. The literature for the KW suggests that a FIR filter is used, but it actually isn't and the exact crossover point is not readily stated. What is clear is that it is intended to work with others in its series. One plus of the KW is that it is a little bit cheaper, but not by much.

[Scott Holtzman]

Literature aside, some does sound better than others.  Seriously,  I am in the minority that I hate the way the PRX sounds.  To me it's boomy, inarticulate and those stupid 4 pin molex connectors vibrate off the drivers.  My buddy/competitor has about 24 of them and I have fixed half the connectits.

To add to my additional irrational reasons for not liking them they are tall and skinny.  I like wide and low and for packing and aesthetic reasons.  The ETX has a glanced form factor.

I have never had a customer because the competition had JBL or EV.  I really think these debates get pointless after awhile.  Pick the sub you like from the vendor you want to work with and then move on to attending to details that will grow the bottom line.

I will say the elx subs are not in the same class as KW or PRX series.   that's why they are 1/2 the price

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

[Richard Penrose]

Thanks guys. Has anyone heard the RCF 708asII? I just seen RCF released this sub in 2015 to replace the 718. I've read a couple of users say the RCF 718 goes louder, deeper and punchier than the KW181!?

[Luke Geis]

If you have RCF money and don't want the EV or JBL mid range offerings you could go with Yamaha's newest gut kicker the DXS18, or JBL's SRX-818SP. The Yamaha is a folded horn design and while it doesn't go super low, it does get the loudest of them all. It's -10db point is 32hz and should get to 40hz at -3db. According to the specs it is a rather peaky looking response, so with some EQ it can be flat from 40hz - 90hz at the cost of a little bit of SPL. It's peak SPL is about 60hz in its natural state. What is sort of scary is not knowing how the peak SPL was measured? They don't state if it was with bass boost mode or not? Probably was and if so the actual SPL once the thing is flattend with EQ will be closer to the 130db mark.



Now the JBL SRX-818SP is about as good as you can ask a speaker to be. It is already in its natural state flat from 40hz - 100hz! Its -3db point is 35hz and it's peak SPL is 135db. So from a performance standpoint it is tough to beat in the single 18" category. The networking capability and the onboard EQ, time alignment and ability to do cardiod all make it the one to beat and of course the only one currently that can do all that. The specs are here: http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SRX818SP_SpecSheet_7.28.15.pdf

Now while the PRX is not winning much love from some it is still a pretty good performer. While I am not understanding of the belief it has a peaky output, the literature says otherwise and my experience with them has been good. They are pretty flat from about the same 40hz to 80hz range as many others. Little EQ should be needed. They get pretty loud at 134db and the usable low end output is still plenty good. Here are the specs for that: http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SRX818SP_SpecSheet_7.28.15.pdf

I have not used the RCF so have no knowledge of them. The specs look nice, but I have bad news. It is a peaky response with the peak between 60hz and 70hz depending on the X=over option you use. With some EQ you can make it flat from 40hz to 90hz, but again at the cost of some SPL. It's peak SPL in its natural state is 133db, so not the loudest option there is. The specs are here: http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=15174794&folderId=4259617&name=DLFE-29712.pdf

Which brings us back to the QSC KW. The QSC has no published plots or specs that are readily available. The only information I can find is what has been presented already. What I can say is that my experience with them has been that they are a one note wonder, which I tune out and live with the lower SPL. They sound fine after that and they are naturally a loud sub, so that helps after they are tuned.

The Electro Voice EKX-18SP while not winning any awards does have some nice options. In music mode they will get acceptably flat at a severe loss in SPL. The issue is that they will only be flat from about 50hz - 80hz and with a little more work can be massaged out to 100hz. They are only rated to 134db peak SPL, but that was an actual measurement and not calculated. The measurement was surely done in club mode which has a huge peaky boost at 55hz, which has an 8 - 10db SPL advantage over live mode. I have not used the EKX, but have used the ELX. The ELX is actually very flat between 40hz and 90hz and sounds really good to me. It's peak SPL is again actually measured with pink noise and with a peak SPL of 134db is not shabby. The units you are looking to replace it with really aren't going to win much if at all over it.  The download link for the EKX specs are here: file:///C:/Users/Endever/Downloads/EKX-18SP_F01U308099.PDF

And the ELX specs: file:///C:/Users/Endever/Downloads/Live_X_Powered_Loudspeaker_Owners_Manual.pdf

The truth be told if your looking for output you are going to have to except a trade off. You can pretty much have one of two options when it comes to subs. You can get low or you can get loud, if you want both you have to pay for it. Now in the market your looking at, the competition is very close. It is literally 6 cents one, 12 the other. I prefer a speaker that is as flat as it can be in its natural state and then I can tune it more easier when at the venue. I don't like one note wonders. The unfortunate thing is that many like the impact of the one note wonders. They get really loud and hit you where you want it too. With subs on specs you have to be careful in what you read. The peak SPL and response is usually calculated and measured in half space. So While 135db may be pretty loud, you will lose some SPL when you place the sub on a typical stage. Now a sub that gets loud while being flat in frequency response is a pretty big deal. You can tune it anyway you want for the most part and the loss in SPL will be marginal. When you tune out the peaks in a one note wonder sub, you loose a bit of SPL; yes you can turn it back up, but your not going to get all of that gain back. This is where expensive comes in. The JBL SRX-818SP is probably the best you can get for the money, but it is also the most expensive, but it is only 1db louder than most of the available options. The EV ELX and JBL PRX are a close second with nearly identical specs.

I gave you a few options to look at, but in all honesty I think you should stick with what you have and get more of them for more output, or sell what you have and reinvest in something that truly performs. If you only have 2 subs, another pair will net you another 3db in total output ability. The average person is only responsive to about 1db, so 3db is not going to make or break any show. If you wan't more output that is going to make a difference you will need between 6 - 9db. 9db is considered by most to be twice the volume, so you will either need a very efficient speaker, or lots of them to get it. The difference of 1db between the different options is not a deal breaker, what is for me is the response. A flat speaker will have that much SPL over a larger number of frequencies. This may not necessarily sound good, but you get a lot more energy out of it that can be used. So once tuned to your liking should yield good results. The other nice thing about a flat speaker is that when you cut frequencies you can usually add a little more back. This should get you even more SPL at the frequencies you do want! If you can't make what you currently have work, then I'm afraid not much else will cut it either in this market segment. You will either need dual 18" models, or a lot more single 18" speakers.

Now if you must, must, must have high output in an affordable range look no further than the Yorkville LS2100P. It is a self powered 21" sub with 3,600 watts peak power and a peak SPL of 144db ( 136db continuous )! I have heard this and the 18" model a few times and they are definitely LOUD, but are still one note wonders. Once tuned they can sound pretty good and are still plenty loud, but they just don't perform like I think the specs suggest. Specs here: http://yorkville.com/downloads/specsheet/ss_ls2100p.pdf?v=1381339421

[Andrew Zannetos]

^ You've used the DXS18? I'm thinking about trading in my SRX818sp for the DXS18 since my tops are DXR15s. I'd always use the DXS in Xtended LF mode--would it be worth it? Does the DXS18 get a lot louder than the SRX818?

[Luke Geis]

I have not used the DXS, no. It is not even on the market yet as far as I know? It will not get any louder than any of the other speakers realistically. The difference in peak SPL between any of the speakers we have even offered up here is about 3db form the loudest to the quietest. I hate to say it, but 3db is not going to make or break any night. If it does, then you already didn't have enough to begin with. As I said 6 - 9db is about what it will take to make an appreciable difference that can be readily used.

Honestly I think the SRX-818SP is the best sub you can get right now in it's market segment. It is very flat and gets rather low and loud. It is everything you could ask for in a sub. Now if the goal is to have a matching rig, I would sell the DXR's and get the matching JBL tops instead. Again they are the thing to beat and you can't go wrong with a fully networkable rig with more than enough processing to do anything you ask it to.

There is so much more I want to say, but will not in lieu of saving internet space. The short of it is to be realistic and understand that a couple few db is not going to make or break anything. Subs are fairly easy to tune and can be made to sound right pretty easily. Don't throw money away to make a parallel purchase.

[Andrew Zannetos]

Thanks, Luke. I was thinking I might have to just replace my rig with a full SRX rig. Kind of mad I didn't go with the SRX828p (such a deal!)
The DXS18 has actually been on the market since late October--contacted a Yamaha rep about it. Guitar Center hasn't gotten a hold of it, and it seems there aren't many reviews yet on the internet, but there are a few dealers that have had them in stock for the past couple of months.

[Scott Holtzman]

Luke, That's a great analysis, I think you have gone through that before so I hope you just keep updating it instead of rewriting it!

Seriously though these subwoofer discussion occur with alarming frequency and they inevitably involve someone choosing between the very solid field of $1200-1500 subs.  It seems like so much mental masturbation when those synaptic cycles could be utilized on shit that will make you money, like business plans, marketing, inventory management, contracts et al.  All of these things are going to effect your pocket to a much greater extent than what sub you buy.

The spaces you these subs and loudspeakers will get used in effect the sound to a greater extent than the differences.  Every one mentioned is a solid performer at the price point and will please the audience and venue owner.

Sure, I it would be cool to sell off our KW inventory and refresh with the SRX 8xxP series but I would not be able to increase my rates so I have to keep buying matching inventory.

Unless you are fully committed to being a 1 system 1 guy operator you have to send the same gear out each time.  Your staff gets comfortable and your customers get consistency.  That is so much more important than a few db's.

Learning to separate my love for gear and the emotional roller coaster of equipment selection from business drivers and customer expectations freed up a lot of cycles in my very cluttered brain.   It's liberating :-)

[ProSoundWeb Community]