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Author Topic: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?  (Read 12508 times)

John Chiara

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2015, 04:01:42 PM »

Spaces designed for un-reinforced symphonic performance require reflective surfaces, long RTs, and also by design typically return plenty of early reflections to the stage, parameters largely contraindicative for amplified pop music. Many of these venues have stood for years and aren't going anywhere, but with some finesse can be worked with.

I think we may be experiencing 'historical bias' in these evaluations. I see new venues in casinos and such that sound just as shitty as old concert theaters. Huge dome ceilings and tons of hard, flat surfaces. It might have been....as it is now...that the architects still rule and know little about acoustics. I do a bit of recording in a famous local hall...and even their world class Steinway doesn't benefit from the 4-5 second RT60 present. Lots of smeared mud...IMO.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2015, 06:51:46 PM »

I attended a Michael W Smith concert this week in Cincinnati, Ohio. The venue was the Cincinnati Music Hall. Upon arrival I noticed a line array focused in front of center stage, some smaller front fill speakers were in the front of the stage, and 4 side fill speakers tucked away behind some Christmas trees. Throughout the entire concert, the main line array and front fill speakers never worked. The only speakers that worked that whole evening where the two sets of side fill speakers. I don't know who the sound company was, but I've been very curious as to what caused such a catastrophic issue at this live event.

When you say they never worked I assume by that you mean that you never heard sound coming from them. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they didn’t work it may just mean that the side fill speakers as you are referring to them were predominate in this setup. So it made it sound like the other parts of the sound system weren’t on. I can’t explain why it sounded bad and soft to you but MWS usually likes it really loud.

Depending on the goal of the person setting up a sound system there are many times that you would think something is off and until you actually stick your ear near it (if you could) or if it is turned off you wouldn’t realize how much it is actually working. I get extremely frustrated when someone asks why the delay speakers aren’t on. And when I have the opportunity to do it I have turned the house off and or the delays off to demonstrate to them how much they are actually working. It's that they are just setup so well that they blend with everything else and you don’t perceive the sound as coming from them.

I went to a church Sunday as the part of a consulting job and when I walked up to the front as the music was going on I couldn’t tell if I was hearing the house speakers or wash from the monitors. And the whole system didn’t have the clarity that it should have. This is going to be an interesting project. 


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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2015, 02:35:57 AM »

The volume was low, as in so low it was hard for the vocals to be heard. The sound was uneven in parts of the room, so if you could see the side speakers you could hear it, but if you were in the center of the room, things could not be understood. According the the staff at the Hall, many of the attendees were having a difficult time hearing, so If that was a sound job I was in charge of, I would consider it a disaster.

  Hello,
  Well, you seemed to answer your own questions... as we not being there, can only speculate based on trying to squeeze answers from you.   Why these shortfalls were allowed to happen...we can still only speculate.

  Hammer
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2015, 07:37:35 AM »

Or perhaps they aren't aware that they are booking the wrong acts into that venue.

Not all entertainment is amplified.

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on among legacy hall managements, artist management, and the sound providers.

Spaces that can acoustically support an orchestra can no longer financially support one. (Enrico Caruso or Jenny Lind won't be taking up a residency anytime soon).

The percentage of un-reinforced entertainments is quite small. Black and White film/television was once quite popular, but is now a museum medium. Legacy venues need to be more than pretty to look at, and require ongoing commitment to their audience. (fr. Latin "to hear").

Live Arts is collaborative. Lighting and Sound and Scenery are always improving, always upping the ante. Streisand carpeted arenas. Venues are part of this equation too, and cannot remain passive and simply hope for the best outcomes.



« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 08:03:22 AM by Jim McKeveny »
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 08:38:09 AM »

I attended a Michael W Smith concert this week in Cincinnati, Ohio. The venue was the Cincinnati Music Hall. Upon arrival I noticed a line array focused in front of center stage, some smaller front fill speakers were in the front of the stage, and 4 side fill speakers tucked away behind some Christmas trees. Throughout the entire concert, the main line array and front fill speakers never worked. The only speakers that worked that whole evening where the two sets of side fill speakers. I don't know who the sound company was, but I've been very curious as to what caused such a catastrophic issue at this live event.
Have you asked the venue management?
We can only speculate without more info.
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CurtisFlatt

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2015, 08:39:52 AM »

I have played at CMH on a few occasions and while the people were great to work with, they do have some things that can be different on "pops" style shows.

  They have (or had ) 2 different series for outside artists playing with the symphony. First is the unplugged series. By unplugged they mean unplugged. The first artist I went in with had a symphony input list that only had 13 inputs plus symphony. We had to push to get 7 and one of those was the main vocal.  You can only get the vocal so loud before the symphony is washed out and can't be heard at all. That makes the vocal have the appearance of being way back in the mix, when in reality it is about the only thing in the mix.

The other is their pops series. They move the P.A. downstage to another position in hopes of keeping it out of the symphony mics. The spl restrictions are pretty tight (memory slipping on this one as it has been 3 years). The artist I was with was on wedgesm as wer 2 other members of the band. (Yes, they had made very serious attempts at ears but there was an inner ear problem that made it impossible for a 90 minute set)

   We were over the set limit before I even had the P.A. on. The bass section even tried to mutiny and leave over stage levels and that was with 60' of 5' tall plexi between the symphony and the band.

   I don't know who is currently mixing Smitty but I seriously doubt that he had an easy time in that room. They are stuck, like many symphonies, with the issue of paying to support themselves and everything involved with their operation. This means having to add series the symphony themselves may not enjoy (they are mostly purists at this venue and, at least at that time, were not happy with that situation).

    As I said earlier, they are great people, it's just not the most fun situation to mix in with a pops style artist.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2015, 09:47:19 AM »

I think we may be experiencing 'historical bias' in these evaluations. I see new venues in casinos and such that sound just as shitty as old concert theaters. Huge dome ceilings and tons of hard, flat surfaces. It might have been....as it is now...that the architects still rule and know little about acoustics.
When do architect students get their sleep?

During the acoustics classes.

"Oh we'll just put a sound system in it and all will be fine"

UH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2015, 10:02:44 AM »

I have played at CMH on a few occasions and while the people were great to work with, they do have some things that can be different on "pops" style shows.

  They have (or had ) 2 different series for outside artists playing with the symphony. First is the unplugged series. By unplugged they mean unplugged. The first artist I went in with had a symphony input list that only had 13 inputs plus symphony. We had to push to get 7 and one of those was the main vocal.  You can only get the vocal so loud before the symphony is washed out and can't be heard at all. That makes the vocal have the appearance of being way back in the mix, when in reality it is about the only thing in the mix.

The other is their pops series. They move the P.A. downstage to another position in hopes of keeping it out of the symphony mics. The spl restrictions are pretty tight (memory slipping on this one as it has been 3 years). The artist I was with was on wedgesm as wer 2 other members of the band. (Yes, they had made very serious attempts at ears but there was an inner ear problem that made it impossible for a 90 minute set)

   We were over the set limit before I even had the P.A. on. The bass section even tried to mutiny and leave over stage levels and that was with 60' of 5' tall plexi between the symphony and the band.

   I don't know who is currently mixing Smitty but I seriously doubt that he had an easy time in that room. They are stuck, like many symphonies, with the issue of paying to support themselves and everything involved with their operation. This means having to add series the symphony themselves may not enjoy (they are mostly purists at this venue and, at least at that time, were not happy with that situation).

    As I said earlier, they are great people, it's just not the most fun situation to mix in with a pops style artist.

Thank you for your input. I have never mixed @ CMH, but I certainly have at many legacy (and modern) symphony houses in USA/Canada. Some locals "get it", many do not. The "nice people but purists" observation is so very valid.
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David May

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2015, 03:21:36 PM »

It is always easier to know what would improve the mix when you're not the one mixing too. I tend to jump to thoughts myself about what the engineer could be doing better or what seems wrong at events I'm not working (like we probably all do). But in reality I don't know what they've already spent hours trying to conquer to get to the point they're at with the mix or the rig as a whole.

Yes a lot of the time I think, goodness what are those knuckle heads DOING!? But I try to remind myself that they may be facing challenges I don't know about, i.e. they may be limited as to what they can do.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 03:23:40 PM by David May »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2015, 02:54:06 AM »

Smith played at a church venue here last year.  They were doing a bus and trailer tour with a Midas pro 2 if I recall.  He said they rented PA and in this case ran through the churches house system.  As I recal, he had a good ear and a nice touch.  He went a little soft on the low end as this particular church has a lot of low end headroom.  I figured he doesn't often get that much rig so he mixes the show the same.

all that bs aside there was nothing at all distracting or deficient.  My wife and I had a great time.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2015, 02:54:06 AM »


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