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Author Topic: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?  (Read 12505 times)

Rodney Connelly

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Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« on: December 18, 2015, 10:12:19 PM »

I attended a Michael W Smith concert this week in Cincinnati, Ohio. The venue was the Cincinnati Music Hall. Upon arrival I noticed a line array focused in front of center stage, some smaller front fill speakers were in the front of the stage, and 4 side fill speakers tucked away behind some Christmas trees. Throughout the entire concert, the main line array and front fill speakers never worked. The only speakers that worked that whole evening where the two sets of side fill speakers. I don't know who the sound company was, but I've been very curious as to what caused such a catastrophic issue at this live event.
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Adam Robinson

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 02:59:31 PM »

I attended a Michael W Smith concert this week in Cincinnati, Ohio. The venue was the Cincinnati Music Hall. Upon arrival I noticed a line array focused in front of center stage, some smaller front fill speakers were in the front of the stage, and 4 side fill speakers tucked away behind some Christmas trees. Throughout the entire concert, the main line array and front fill speakers never worked. The only speakers that worked that whole evening where the two sets of side fill speakers. I don't know who the sound company was, but I've been very curious as to what caused such a catastrophic issue at this live event.

You say it was catastrophic - did it sound bad?  While I can't speak to what's going on in this venue or at this show, I will say that there have been many times that I've brought a "rock" show into a "music hall" type venue that was primarily built around orchestral events, and many of these times I was not allowed to tie into the house system.  Because of the rigging limitations of some of rooms, there isn't the ability to fly another rig so the system we used was ground-stacked. 
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2015, 03:04:19 PM »

You say it was catastrophic - did it sound bad?  While I can't speak to what's going on in this venue or at this show, I will say that there have been many times that I've brought a "rock" show into a "music hall" type venue that was primarily built around orchestral events, and many of these times I was not allowed to tie into the house system.  Because of the rigging limitations of some of rooms, there isn't the ability to fly another rig so the system we used was ground-stacked.

  +1  ...and, Music Hall type venues can easily be turned into a nasty wash by too much sound/sound system. 

  Hammer
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 07:52:32 AM »

Wikipedia entry (self-penned by CMH, I imagine) for the hall reads "...ranks acoustically as one of the finest performance venues in the world".

This is code for "Run Away!!"

In my experience venues like this hide behind language such as this to remain willfully ignorant and routinely unhelpful regarding the realities modern amplified reinforcement and entertainment. Any kind of acoustic help: soft goods, carpet, strike the shell, etc. is off-the-table. A couple of L/R stacks on the deck is all they will grudgingly tolerate, and when patrons complain about insufficiency it all gets turned back on the tech people, heroically trying to bail against the tide and present a show with the barest skeleton of appropriate tools.

Just my experienced guess...
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Milt Hathaway

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2015, 08:49:43 AM »

In my experience venues like this hide behind language such as this to remain willfully ignorant and routinely unhelpful regarding the realities modern amplified reinforcement and entertainment.

Or perhaps they aren't aware that they are booking the wrong acts into that venue.

Not all entertainment is amplified.
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Rodney Connelly

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 09:52:58 AM »

The volume was low, as in so low it was hard for the vocals to be heard. The sound was uneven in parts of the room, so if you could see the side speakers you could hear it, but if you were in the center of the room, things could not be understood. According the the staff at the Hall, many of the attendees were having a difficult time hearing, so If that was a sound job I was in charge of, I would consider it a disaster.





  +1  ...and, Music Hall type venues can easily be turned into a nasty wash by too much sound/sound system. 

  Hammer
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Hayden J. Nebus

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2015, 10:54:15 AM »

Wikipedia entry (self-penned by CMH, I imagine) for the hall reads "...ranks acoustically as one of the finest performance venues in the world".

This is code for "Run Away!!"

In my experience venues like this hide behind language such as this to remain willfully ignorant and routinely unhelpful regarding the realities modern amplified reinforcement and entertainment. Any kind of acoustic help: soft goods, carpet, strike the shell, etc. is off-the-table. A couple of L/R stacks on the deck is all they will grudgingly tolerate, and when patrons complain about insufficiency it all gets turned back on the tech people, heroically trying to bail against the tide and present a show with the barest skeleton of appropriate tools.

Just my experienced guess...

Spaces designed for un-reinforced symphonic performance require reflective surfaces, long RTs, and also by design typically return plenty of early reflections to the stage, parameters largely contraindicative for amplified pop music. Many of these venues have stood for years and aren't going anywhere, but with some finesse can be worked with. In the absence of variable room absorption systems like curtains, what's required is directivity, and loudspeaker placement that minimizes room interaction. Keep the energy off the walls and ceiling.

This might mean what is technically required is a box with more narrow horizontal dispersion than what you have on the truck. Maybe the real problem here is that the PA vendor is not carrying the right fit for the venue, or that the rider calls for is something wholly inappopriate for the venue.   

These rooms often seem to have an SPL threshold, above which the room reflections take over and everything turns to shit, so stage volume becomes critical. Remember, the room is designed to reflect acoustic energy from the stage! Also sometimes thinner is better, if the room RT is ~2 seconds across the midband, it might be 4 seconds for bass frequencies, and if the subs are already haystacked, vulgar amounts of LF buildup happen.

Disclaimer: I'm not an acoustician, but I do play one every week in front of a live audience.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2015, 01:16:51 PM »

Sounds like the center hang and front fills were a house system that the soundco wasn't allowed to tie into as Adam has experienced.  The "side fill's tucked behind Christmas trees" sounds like the typical event coordinator thing where sound folks are forced to use as little stuff as possible and have it shoved off into unworkable locations so that things look "prettier".  Standard fare for weddings and corporate events.
Maybe one of those "rope" speaker things might have helped as a front fill.  ;)
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Rodney Connelly

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2015, 03:14:15 PM »

The line array and front fills were actually brought in by the sound company and are not permanent fixtures of the hall.



Sounds like the center hang and front fills were a house system that the soundco wasn't allowed to tie into as Adam has experienced.  The "side fill's tucked behind Christmas trees" sounds like the typical event coordinator thing where sound folks are forced to use as little stuff as possible and have it shoved off into unworkable locations so that things look "prettier".  Standard fare for weddings and corporate events.
Maybe one of those "rope" speaker things might have helped as a front fill.  ;)
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Hayden J. Nebus

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Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 03:19:08 PM »

Sounds like the center hang and front fills were a house system that the soundco wasn't allowed to tie into as Adam has experienced.  The "side fill's tucked behind Christmas trees" sounds like the typical event coordinator thing where sound folks are forced to use as little stuff as possible and have it shoved off into unworkable locations so that things look "prettier".  Standard fare for weddings and corporate events.
Maybe one of those "rope" speaker things might have helped as a front fill.  ;)

As a house guy, I offer up center and fills easily twice as often as I'm actually taken up on it. Maybe they chose not to use it.

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Michael W Smith Cincinnati - What happened to the sound?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 03:19:08 PM »


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