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Author Topic: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated  (Read 5896 times)

Rusty Stevens

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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2015, 10:35:25 PM »

Thanks,
I was planning on playing with the settings on the monitors and amps before the next show anyway, so I'll give that a shot.

110db? Earplugs? Absolutely! I provide my crew with disposable plugs, and I wear a set of http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/mic-stands-and-accessories/miscellaneous/soundchecks when I'm not actively trying to pick out a minute sonic detail. Even when the bands are quieter. I think it keeps my hearing more accurate and stable over the course of the show.

Yes the monitors, and the mains were dead clean at this level. I was listening carefully for any breaking up or distortion, and didn't hear a peep. I still have to do my sweep testing on all of the cabinets (just an OCD precaution), but they were all fine when I shut it down at the end of the night. It sounded great outside the bar. For a bunch of used gear it's holding together rather nicely.

110 db in a small room? Hope you were wearing earplugs. I'd hipass the monitors at 100 hz. Should get you a bit more headroom.

One question. Was your system clean at that level?
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Scott Bolt

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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 01:15:21 AM »

Thanks Tim.
I've worked with 4 bands so far this time around, and three of them has taken my cue on stage volume. The music is similar, but the other bands let me do my job, instead of fighting me. Most of them use a half stack turned way down (I have one guy that I had to make him turn it up so I get more of him and less stage bleed in the guitar mic).
I'm already in the process of writing up stage volume rules to add to my requirements, and plan on working with this venue on a few of the other issues I experienced that night. I just have to come up with a diplomatic way of communicating what should be common sense in the music industry to a bar owner.
My concern isn't indoors where my rig is more than adequate for the size of venue that I'm currently servicing. I'm asking about out-doors sizing so I can plan appropriately for the summer season and book gigs with confidence: Do I have enough, should I add, should I just double what I have, or switch to the same "size" rig and used pro-boxes?

Simple answer about the types of gigs I get, I'm doing my best to work with artists that allow me to be at my best to our mutual benefit. I'm sure I'll have more like this show in the future, but I'm doing what I can to avoid it.

Outdoors generally (very generally) requires 4x the amount of speakers .... especially subs.

Your 808's are some powerful subs though.  I think if you doubled up on those and doubled the tops you could cover a decent outdoor gig.
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Rusty Stevens

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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 04:59:03 AM »

I appreciate the feedback.

Outdoors generally (very generally) requires 4x the amount of speakers .... especially subs.

Your 808's are some powerful subs though.  I think if you doubled up on those and doubled the tops you could cover a decent outdoor gig.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 06:33:37 AM »

Rusty,

 I run just two 808s on outdoor shows and feel they're just adequate to cover a pretty good area at a reasonable level, however I do not typically provide for the types of bands both of our threads are talking about and if I was planning to do heavy bands outdoors I would be bringing a lot more subs. I also do not run my subs hotter than my tops; if I need to feel more kick I turn the kick channel up, not my subs.

I think if you show up with just (2) 808s you're going to wish you'd brought more.

I'm actually looking to replace mine now (hint)  with something much more powerful (OS, TH118, etc.) because I don't want to have bring 4 subs. I run 2 off of a PLX3602 and have been switching back and forth between them and a set of powered Yamaha DXS-12s and find that indoors they are equal matches.

You  would think the 808s would go much louder, than those compact 12"s but they do not. The loud gig I discussed in my other thread was  DSR 112s over the DXS-12 subs.
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Rusty Stevens

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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 07:33:42 AM »

PM sent sir

Rusty,

 I run just two 808s on outdoor shows and feel they're just adequate to cover a pretty good area at a reasonable level, however I do not typically provide for the types of bands both of our threads are talking about and if I was planning to do heavy bands outdoors I would be bringing a lot more subs. I also do not run my subs hotter than my tops; if I need to feel more kick I turn the kick channel up, not my subs.

I think if you show up with just (2) 808s you're going to wish you'd brought more.

I'm actually looking to replace mine now (hint)  with something much more powerful (OS, TH118, etc.) because I don't want to have bring 4 subs. I run 2 off of a PLX3602 and have been switching back and forth between them and a set of powered Yamaha DXS-12s and find that indoors they are equal matches.

You  would think the 808s would go much louder, than those compact 12"s but they do not. The loud gig I discussed in my other thread was  DSR 112s over the DXS-12 subs.
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Mike Monte

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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2015, 07:38:11 AM »

It was a 150 capacity bar with about 50 patrons. Band was a loud 80's metal show (drum cage, dual full guitar stacks, full bass stack, and yes they "had to" use it all). So the band started out on the boarder of too loud, at mid show I stopped checking the SPL as it was tickling 110db (C/Fast) in multiple locations around the venue. Keys, Kick, Guitar panned hard to the opposite side for some semblance of balance, and vocals were the only things in the FOH mix. It got louder from there, and the band wasn't open to suggestions. I was only tapping the conservatively set limiter on my sub ch. and had a little room before limit on the F/R on my speaker processor so I had a little bit more to give there. The poor monitor amps were riding the edge of the clip lights (The clipped light flickered a little on a couple of ch. and I backed those down a notch).
That is the hardest I've had to push things to date, and am now questioning my choices as I had hoped that the system would be suitable for small out-doors shows (about 100-200 people). I still think I might be ok for lighter material at a lower SPL outside, but am looking at the most economical way to improve my starter rig. Please keep in mind that the sound quality has been sufficient (many compliments stating that it sounds better than competitors in my class).

Current system:
4 Peavey PV12M monitors powered one per channel on a pair of QSC RMX1450's
1 Peavey DM15 (was not used this last show) as a drum monitor for when a 5th mix or electronic drums are being used.
2 Yorkville E-15's powered on a Crown XLS2500 in stereo
2 Yorkville LS808's on a bridged Crown XLS2500

Most of these choices were because it is was the best equipment I could find used, or otherwise affordable to get me started. I'm trying to plan out my upgrade path and here are my questions.

1) Will I gain anything by stepping the E-15 up from 440Watts to a figure closer to the 700Watt program rating?
2) Will a pair of something along the lines of an appropriately powered EAW KF650's or FK750's (one per side) give me better SPL and coverage than adding a second E-15 to each side? (suggestions or other boxes in the used range of a pair of the EAW's or another pair of the E-15's appreciated)
3) Same question with a pair of JTR Growlers alone /vs/ adding another pair of LS808's to what I have (not looking to mix and match brands and models if it can be avoided).
4) If I add more power to the Peavey PV12M's that are rated at 500Watts program (Low cut at 80hz and high shelf starting at ~14K depending on how much I need to squeeze them), will I generate magic smoke instantly? (Am I under-powering them with the QSC 1450's at one box per ch.) I'm figuring that the speakers are up to the task as is, and am just considering a little more amp headroom. This band had a ludicrous stage volume, and they though that the monitors were suitably loud and clear.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Rusty

PS Before i get the lecture about irresponsible sound levels please note the following:

1) After asking for and receiving the input and equipment list from the band I made the suggestion to them that it might be a bit much for the venue, and stated that they might want to pare it down.
2) Upon the reply "We need it all so we can rock" and "I need 2 full stack plugged in because we've had house sound let us down before" I contacted the venue owner, whom I have an ongoing business relationship with, and who hired me on for this show. I warned her that they would likely be really loud.
3) I encouraged the band to leave some equipment on the truck when they arrived and were complaining that "this bar is too small and we will be too loud in here". They declined and brought it all in.
4) I reminded both parties that I would just be balancing out the mix out front, and the stage volume would dictate the overall level. (Owner - I've already tried talking to them, and if it's too loud you need to get them to turn it down on stage. Band - I'm already giving you a 4th monitor so the singer can have 2. I only provided for 3 in my quote to the owner, and I had explained to you that I would provide a 4th out of the kindness of my heart during our previous conversation. No! I will not Mic every drum and cymbal on your kit. You get a kick mic and that is it. If you aren't loud enough in this room to cut through the stage volume, your band needs to turn it down.)
From there I just went with the flow, and only pointed at the bassist to turn it down when his 2x15 rig started breaking up and was ruining the sound for the whole band. The second band that they had come to finish their time slot for them was even louder (Threw up my hands and had lost the ability to care about much, especially a Dio wannabe at that point). I gave them a hard cutoff at midnight (30 minutes of play time after they screwed about for 45 minutes getting set up). I was originally booked for 7-10, first band didn't actually start til 8:30 (bar owner booked us for different times apparently)... So the whole night was interesting.

I have run a rig that is somewhat similar to yours ( one Yorkville E152 over one Yorkville ES808 sub per side) for indoor loud HS aged rock band events.  It is usually enough for my needs.   In my opinion the 1" horn on your e15 is a little light for a rock band, plain & simple.  I have found that the 2" horn on the E152 will "rip your face off" if you give it appropriate power.

You could bi-amp the e15 thus giving you more control of the horn but that may be asking for trouble.....you just need "more horn".  Your subs are fine as you just need to keep the vocals on-top. 

If you like the Yorkville Elite series try to upgrade to the E152's....

FWIW: After using my e152 over es808 rig successfully for a few years I upgraded my e152's to Yorkville TX4's.  The increased sensitivity plus the protection of the TXP processor make them ideal for small rock shows.  I have no need to upgrade my system at this time.

Also: Asking most local "rock gods" to leave some of their gear in the van or to "turn down" their amps is like me asking my wife to "cut the lawn" while I am out for the day fishing with the guys.....don't hold your breath - lol.

Mike M   
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Re: Gig last saturday night made me question my rig - suggestions appreciated
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2015, 07:38:11 AM »


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