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[Steve Oldridge]

Sorry for the lengthy post..

BACKGROUND: OK.. was July 2014 when I last posted on this same topic, but have had almost a 15 months of using the X32 Producer since then.
We ALL went IEM (PSM200's and my Carvin EM900) with MONO mixes. That lasted about 3 months before the 2 guitar players ripped out their ears, sold their units and moved back to wedges. However, due to lifetime hearing-loss issues (surprise?) they have been instructed that they need to move back to IEM's or suffer additional degradation/loss.

A little while back, I went stereo IEM and upgraded to a Senn G3 unit. Output busses 1-4 are used for 4 individual mono mixes (2 wedge and 2 * PSM200 IEM mixes) and I have 5-6 for my stereo G3 mix.
To prepare for the change - we bought an S16 to give us the additional output busses - as we need 5 "pairs". The plan is to use busses 1-6 for THREE stereo IEM mixes then busses 9-12 for the other TWO (routed to AES50-A busses 1-4 on the S16). This leaves 7/8 for FOH and 13-16 for effects.

PROBLEM:  So here's the challenge.  We (I?) WANT a COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT monitor mix!! without adding an additional console, splitter, yada, yada, yada!

We use 16 inputs on Producer and even with the above config we'll STILL be monitoring the SAME 16 channels going to FOH!!!
 
I tried the split approach, routing 1-16 inputs to 17-32 also. The gain controls on 1-16 map to 17-32, even tho' all the other channel features are separate for 17-32 (EQ, gate, comp, effects, routing, etc.), every time FOH changes channel trim - usually during sound check, but not always) it impacts our IEM mix. We want to be independent/free of that.

SOLUTION: [??] So, I'm thinking - and please suggest alternative approaches if you have any, given the hardware above - that the only way to get what we want is to add a 16-ch snake splitter up front.

Theoretically, the first leg of the split would go into Producers 1-16 for FOH. Second leg of split would go into S16's 16 inputs. We would map Producer's 17-32 inputs to the S16's 16 inputs. This would give us complete separation of 1-16 (FOH) and 17-32 (IEM'S)!!

This sound about right?  Anyone seen this done in another manner?
Is there another way/approach to doing this?
Am I barking up the wrong tree??

Thoughts?   and ...
Thanks!
-Steve

[Callan Browne]

Hey Steve,
Who's in control on the foh mix ?
Sounds like you need to have a word with them about not changing the trim once sound check is complete.
Only once the trim is set would you finalise the iem mixes.
Somebody has to have control over the trim and it's going to impact all mixes for that channel.
Even if you split foh and iem, the trim will impact all iem mixes.

Do you feel you need to set your own eq for iem's, or are you ok to have a single eq across iem and foh?

[Steve Oldridge]

Hey Steve,
Who's in control on the foh mix ?
Sounds like you need to have a word with them about not changing the trim once sound check is complete.
Only once the trim is set would you finalise the iem mixes.
Somebody has to have control over the trim and it's going to impact all mixes for that channel.
Even if you split foh and iem, the trim will impact all iem mixes.

Do you feel you need to set your own eq for iem's, or are you ok to have a single eq across iem and foh?

Callan,
WE control FOH - from stage during sound check.. then we have someone "pushing faders" out front via iPad.  When we have house provided PA we map their snake split into our 16 inputs.
So yes, most of the impact to IEM's is during sound check, where BL is "tweaking". For example, my mix changed completely last night due to trim changes made when the BL decided to connect his protools rig to the console. Trim adjustments were made to avoid high signal levels into protools.

But, if we have those same 16 channels connected to the 16-ch snake with a split into 1-16 and the second going to 17-32, then trims on 17-32 (IEM) will control those channels and NOT be impacted when a change is made to 1-16 trims!
Or am I missing something?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out how to use the 32-in/16-out capability of the X32 to behave like 2 layered consoles - one for FOH and one for IEM's with 16-ch each - just like [a smaller scale] the real world, keeping them separate and independent from each other, but in the same hardware..
   

[Mac Kerr]

But, if we have those same 16 channels connected to the 16-ch snake with a split into 1-16 and the second going to 17-32, then trims on 17-32 (IEM) will control those channels and NOT be impacted when a change is made to 1-16 trims!
Or am I missing something?

Are you saying you have 2 16ch digital snakes or 1 32ch? That is what you need for the trims to not be the same, a digital split happens after the trim. You need to do an analog split before the 32 inputs to keep them separate. If you can do that you can have your system behave as 2 separate mixers.

Mac

[Steve Oldridge]

Are you saying you have 2 16ch digital snakes or 1 32ch? That is what you need for the trims to not be the same, a digital split happens after the trim. You need to do an analog split before the 32 inputs to keep them separate. If you can do that you can have your system behave as 2 separate mixers.

Mac

Mac,
we have the 16 inputs on the Producer, and 16-more on the S16 (en route).

I'm saying that I BELIEVE that the only way to do what I want is to split the 16 inputs AHEAD of either of both, so same 16 channels goes to both input devices.
Meaning.. 16-ch splitter snake up front - where all XLR's connect to.
One leg of the split goes to the producer (1-16), the other leg to the S16, which is mapped to 17-32 on the producer.
It's the same 16 channels, one set going to Producer Ch's 1-16, the other to Producer ch's 17-32 (via S16).

I'm asking if there's another way to do this with an X32 Producer or not.

[Scott Olewiler]

*Deleted for providing incorrect information. No reason to confuse anyone.

[Callan Browne]

WE control FOH - from stage during sound check..
[..]
due to trim changes made when the BL decided to connect his protools rig to the console. 

If you use the PT rig regularly, would it be possible to connect it before sound check is complete, then set your IEM mixes? - Thus there are no trim changes.

As you say, you are in control of FOH, so assert your control and don't let anybody change the trim once it's set - problem solved.
If a channel level jumps significantly (by a keyboard player turning up etc.) then you'll have the same issue with all IEM mixes having that channel being too loud and you can choose how to resolve that (source/trim/mix).

Perhaps I just can't get my head around why you want to carry and set up (and troubleshoot?) the extra gear for what I see as very little benefit.

[Mac Kerr]

Perhaps I just can't get my head around why you want to carry and set up (and troubleshoot?) the extra gear for what I see as very little benefit.

It's to get separate mic pre control for monitors so the FOH guy doesn't screw up the monitors by changing the gain.

In fact I don't think you even need an S16 to do that part, just need it to get your additional 8 outputs. Any input on the mixer can be assigned to as many channels as you want and I believe  it's all pre head amp.

In order to get to the patch point that lets you assign a given input to multiple control strips you need to be in the digital domain, which is after the mic pre and the AD converter. Assigning an input to multiple control strips is not the same as a splitter which is usually 1>2 or 1>3 channels.

Mac

[Tim McCulloch]

Steve, yes a simple Y-cord split from mics/DIs into the Producer AND S16, then on the Producer's Routing screen > Home tab, > inputs 16-24 and 24-32, assign AES50 A1-8 and AES50 A1 8-16 respectively.

[Steve Oldridge]

It's to get separate mic pre control for monitors so the FOH guy doesn't screw up the monitors by changing the gain.In order to get to the patch point that lets you assign a given input to multiple control strips you need to be in the digital domain, which is after the mic pre and the AD converter. Assigning an input to multiple control strips is not the same as a splitter which is usually 1>2 or 1>3 channels.

Mac

  ^^^  THIS ^^^^
Thanks Mac.. this IS my objective.. use 1-16 and 17-32 as 2 separate consoles, on shared hardware..


Tim,
hadn't thought about "Y" cables... but heck YEAH.. that's a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER than a rack-mount splitter!!   

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