ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?  (Read 20687 times)

Scott Slater

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 373
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2015, 08:27:02 AM »

Many people buy into this myth.  I think it came out of confusion from the school of thought that faders should be "around unity".  This allows finer adjustments to be made since the db scale is wider at the top of a fader than at the bottom.

Mixing with input gains, trims, EQ gains, etc, is wrong.  Gains are there to get the best on strongest average signal into the channel without overloading it.  The EQ gain is to offset any overall increase or decrease in signal from changing the EQ settings similar use as makeup gain on a compressor.

The faders are the largest, and easiest to see your mix at a glance (when properly used) for a reason, because they are what you mix on.
Logged

Dave Pluke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1782
  • Northwest GA, USA
    • BIGG GRIN Productions
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2015, 08:55:26 AM »


4) The knobs on the amps should almost never be wide open, if they are I should be looking for why. - they are for matching the amps input to the output voltage of the board and allow for making up for losses in a copper snake, etc. They are NOT a volume knob! (got my hand slapped for cranking them up during my first setup).

Is this widely accepted?  Can't DSP's control that voltage and leave the amp controls at full?  Reaching around an amp rack in back of the stacks seems like a difficult way to adjust levels for FOH.

Maybe I'm just reading this the wrong way (or am a cup or two short on coffee this morning).

Dave
Logged
...an analog man in a digital world [tm]

Flying direct to nearly everywhere out of ATL

Doug Fowler

  • Member since May 1995, 2nd poster on original LAB, moderator on and off since 1997, now running TurboMOD v1.826
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2331
  • Saint Louis, MO USA
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2015, 09:15:47 AM »

Having sat through Robert Scoville's class several times, he does what he has to do to get his input faders near or at 0 because that's where the finest resolution lies.  Aside from input trims he may also route through subgroups to manage gain. 

Old school: back in the day when there was no recall, it was common to try to mix around 0 because you easily had your show back the next day. 
Logged
Brawndo, the Thirst Mutilator. 
It's got electrolytes. 
It's got what plants crave.

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17176
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2015, 09:33:22 AM »

Console designers invest effort to make the consoles work well in spite of sundry different favored mix approaches. 

JR
Logged
Cancel the "cancel culture". Do not participate in mob hatred.

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1655
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2015, 10:24:47 AM »

Console designers invest effort to make the consoles work well in spite of sundry different favored mix approaches. 

JR


The other thing not mentioned is if channel trims are used during the show, you foul up the monitor mix, as the trim affects everything in the channel - pre, post auxes, and of course feed into the main.  So you may end up with a half-decent house mix, but your performers will be confused and unhappy with a constantly changing monitor mix.


frank


ps. Bob L, you always have such a gentle way to deal with those not using their full IQ.  Call it as you see it! Carry on.  ;) ;)
Logged

John L Nobile

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2658
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2015, 10:29:34 AM »


4) The knobs on the amps should almost never be wide open, if they are I should be looking for why. - they are for matching the amps input to the output voltage of the board and allow for making up for losses in a copper snake, etc. They are NOT a volume knob! (got my hand slapped for cranking them up during my first setup).


I tend to work this way. I try to set all my input gains as hot as I can without overloading, run my faders to 0 on the loudest parts and set DSP's inputs as high as possible while maintaining a clean signal.
If I run the amps wide open, I find that I have to bring my mains down.
Years ago, I had a Meyer system and ran the amps full and turned down the processor. After some advice on this board, I turned the processor inputs up and amps down. The system sounded noticeably better.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23741
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 11:44:19 AM »

Richard, there are 2 basic schools of thought regarding input gain staging.  That's what you're talking about even if you didn't know it yet. ;)

One school picks relative level by PFL'ing or "soloing" an input and bringing up the input trim until the signal reads 0 dBvu (or -18DBFS in digital mixing).  You run the faders up or down to get the level you want in the main mix.  Note that you'll have very hot signals from some things you'll want further back in the mix (and that this has implications where you start dialing up monitor mixes for the players).

The other school turns the trim all the way down and runs the fader up to around the -0- mark, then adjusts gain trim until the sound is at approximately the right level for the main mix.

As for where to set the main fader, I start at -0-.  If I have to barely crack open channels, I bring the main down, sometimes a lot.  Many PA systems have waaaaay too much input gain and is why we turn down the input level (not the output level, that's another discussion) at the power amps.
Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Rusty Stevens

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 12:04:04 PM »

Sorry if I was unclear. I get accused of that often.
I don't control volume with the amp pads. With the speakers unplugged I send pink noise out the board just barely clipping on the main meters. I turn the input pads on the amps up until clip just flickers and then back it off until the clip light goes away. I usually only do this once, unless there is an equipment change in the signal path from the desk to the amp. I mark this down as the default setting, and tape it to the amp. Don't even need to be outside of your garage, and you've got your amp headroom set (at least pretty darned close). I'm sure there are better ways to handle this, it's just what I was taught. It works, it's free, I'm still getting full power on peak signals, and I never see the clip light flicker on the amp.
Hope that helps explain what I'm doing.
And no I've never had a solid state amp blow up from running "no load" for the 60 seconds it takes to set this.
Rusty
Is this widely accepted?  Can't DSP's control that voltage and leave the amp controls at full?  Reaching around an amp rack in back of the stacks seems like a difficult way to adjust levels for FOH.

Maybe I'm just reading this the wrong way (or am a cup or two short on coffee this morning).

Dave
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 12:07:48 PM by Rusty Stevens »
Logged

Richard Wong

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015, 12:17:42 PM »

Richard, there are 2 basic schools of thought regarding input gain staging.  That's what you're talking about even if you didn't know it yet. ;)

One school picks relative level by PFL'ing or "soloing" an input and bringing up the input trim until the signal reads 0 dBvu (or -18DBFS in digital mixing).  You run the faders up or down to get the level you want in the main mix.  Note that you'll have very hot signals from some things you'll want further back in the mix (and that this has implications where you start dialing up monitor mixes for the players).

The other school turns the trim all the way down and runs the fader up to around the -0- mark, then adjusts gain trim until the sound is at approximately the right level for the main mix.

As for where to set the main fader, I start at -0-.  If I have to barely crack open channels, I bring the main down, sometimes a lot.  Many PA systems have waaaaay too much input gain and is why we turn down the input level (not the output level, that's another discussion) at the power amps.

Thank you Tim and everyone else for the responses. I think that I have it figured out. I personally like the input trims a tad high, but NEVER clipping. I won't ever change them, unless clipping sets in, so my other mixes (monitors) shouldn't be to far off.

Out of curiosity, what what differences in sound would occur if one ran mains at say -30 as opposed to zero?

thx again
Logged

Rob Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3531
  • Boston Metro North/West
    • Lynx Audio Services
Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 12:26:14 PM »

Just weighing in to reinforce what has been said:

I was taught the following back in the 80's when I started running sound.
1) Set the pre's as high as I could get away with to get a strong (0db analog / now -12db(ish) digital) input signal. I tend to start out a little hotter than that, and roll them back as needed.
2) The channel faders are for mixing the level of everything on stage and if I have to take one up to or over 0db I should be looking for a problem somewhere in the system, including a stage volume issue. Might be an issue, might not, but always check.
3) The master fader is the only control in the system to be used for changing how loud the mains are.
4) The knobs on the amps should almost never be wide open, if they are I should be looking for why. - they are for matching the amps input to the output voltage of the board and allow for making up for losses in a copper snake, etc. They are NOT a volume knob! (got my hand slapped for cranking them up during my first setup).

This has worked for me so far, and every time I am a guest on a band's personal PA it is the first thing I have to fix. They all seem to be amazed at how much louder and clearer the little PA sounds when I've finished. The conversation usually goes, "don't touch that, that's where my Dad/Cousin/normal sound guy says it needs to be," {make marks on some tape on the board} "I've marked out the settings so we can go back if you don't like the way this sounds, please trust me I know what I'm doing"

I always have my amps WFO. Why? Well, the worst a person screwing with your gear can do is turn it down. My DSP sends an appropriate level such that for my largest shows, the main fader is near 0. Most shows I simply pull the master fader down to -5 or even lower if need be. I don't mess with the DSP or amps. I set the channel gains to about -24 during sound check as the band is always louder during the show and since I mix monitors and may record, I don't want to change the gains after the show starts if I can avoid it. The channel faders end up where they do.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Logged
rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

Dealer for: AKG, Allen & Heath, Ashley, Astatic, Audix, Blue Microphones, CAD, Chauvet, Community, Countryman, Crown, DBX, Electro-Voice, FBT, Furman, Heil, Horizon, Intellistage, JBL, Lab Gruppen, Mid Atlantic, On Stage Stands, Pelican, Peterson Tuners, Presonus, ProCo, QSC, Radial, RCF, Sennheiser, Shure, SKB, Soundcraft, TC Electronics, Telex, Whirlwind and others

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Newbie question about faders at 0db or not?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 12:26:14 PM »


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.039 seconds with 22 queries.