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Author Topic: defining mushy bass  (Read 6355 times)

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2015, 03:44:45 PM »

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Bob Leonard

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2015, 04:39:03 PM »

Why do people assume all bass/lower frequency notes come from the subs. Big clue here - They don't.
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John Chiara

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2015, 08:17:16 PM »

Why do people assume all bass/lower frequency notes come from the subs. Big clue here - They don't.
The fundamental frequency might but the harmonics that determine the timbre do not. Same with a kick, definition cone from different places.
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Ed Walters

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 08:21:39 PM »

Assuming the source is decent, "mushy" bass is often caused by a time/phase misalignment between the subs and top cabinets in the crossover region. To be "in phase", the output of the various cabinets should be within 1/4 wavelength, which is only 2.8 feet at a crossover of 100 Hz.
This begs the question, what is a reasonable fashion to "pile" a decent sized pile of subs ?

Thanks to you and everyone else for their replies.  These days, I rarely use a sound system I don't have control over. This time, I have to deal with what's there. This club (capacity 300, but it's an old theatre, 22' ceiling and lots of plaster) has an awful sounding installed system. I listened to my typical system tweaking playback material for about two minutes, because that's all the time I had.  The bass was mush, the upper mids/highs harsh and horribly beamy/lobey. I didn't pay attention to the low mids because they weren't offensive, probably because they were lacking.

I'm back in there with actual setup time in a couple weeks. Sounds like I will start with Smaart and setting sub to top delays, and creating a crossover from X32 (theirs) output processing (there is something being done for a crossover but it ain't right). Maybe I can get it to suck less.

It's just that it bugged me a lot more than usual. I am doing the gig as a favor to a group of old friends, and I took one listen and realized that no matter what I did behind the console, it was going to be a disappointing mix.

Thanks for the ideas, wish me luck.

As far as Art's question, I consider a reasonably arranged pile of subs to be one that at least tries to get them close together in the center of the stage-front, symmetrical, etc.   Fancier arrangements like end-fire or cardioid are good, but not useful in smaller environments where there's limited depth to put speakers and there's no available DSP.

Ed Walters
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 09:20:34 PM »

Thanks to you and everyone else for their replies.  These days, I rarely use a sound system I don't have control over. This time, I have to deal with what's there. This club (capacity 300, but it's an old theatre, 22' ceiling and lots of plaster) has an awful sounding installed system. I listened to my typical system tweaking playback material for about two minutes, because that's all the time I had.  The bass was mush, the upper mids/highs harsh and horribly beamy/lobey. I didn't pay attention to the low mids because they weren't offensive, probably because they were lacking.

I suspect the architecture is not in your favor.  The plaster ceiling is probably barrel-vaulted and the dimensions are probably even integer multiples, i.e. 1:2:3.  Everything bad happens at octaves and what sounds bad changes when you move 4 or 5 feet.  Let me know if I'm getting close...

Damage or "improvements" to the installed system are a further factor as well as the possibility the Rig Ain't Up to the Gig.
Quote
I'm back in there with actual setup time in a couple weeks. Sounds like I will start with Smaart and setting sub to top delays, and creating a crossover from X32 (theirs) output processing (there is something being done for a crossover but it ain't right). Maybe I can get it to suck less.

Good luck with that.  Do you have access to the D9 eq?  From your description it sounds to me like there are multiple speakers covering the same audience area (or there are some really crazy reflections, also possible), and unless you can turn off an amp or unplug an offending speaker there isn't much you can do to fix that.  Breaking out Smaart can give you some insight if you've got sufficient time and chops for in situ measurements but most likely you'll have just enough time to say "wow, it looks as bad as it sounds."
Quote
It's just that it bugged me a lot more than usual. I am doing the gig as a favor to a group of old friends, and I took one listen and realized that no matter what I did behind the console, it was going to be a disappointing mix.

Thanks for the ideas, wish me luck.

As far as Art's question, I consider a reasonably arranged pile of subs to be one that at least tries to get them close together in the center of the stage-front, symmetrical, etc.   Fancier arrangements like end-fire or cardioid are good, but not useful in smaller environments where there's limited depth to put speakers and there's no available DSP.

Ed Walters

Good luck, Ed.
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Ed Walters

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 09:31:13 PM »

Do you have access to the D9 eq?

HAHAHA! 

I wish. Thanks for the laugh!

Ed Walters
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 07:32:55 AM »

First...hi pass the bass.

This is the eureka advice.

Couple the instruments' natural proclivities, with typical R&R haystack system tuning, and mush is what you get.

Artfully applied subtractive EQ is step 1.
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Art Welter

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 10:47:59 AM »

Assuming the source is decent, "mushy" bass is often caused by a time/phase misalignment between the subs and top cabinets in the crossover region. To be "in phase", the output of the various cabinets should be within 1/4 wavelength, which is only 2.8 feet at a crossover of 100 Hz.
This begs the question, what is a reasonable fashion to "pile" a decent sized pile of subs ?


As far as Art's question, I consider a reasonably arranged pile of subs to be one that at least tries to get them close together in the center of the stage-front, symmetrical, etc.   
Ed Walters
Ed,

Assuming the mains are L/R, a horizontal center sub array guarantees that there will be virtually no place in the room where the subs will be phase aligned to the mains in the crossover region. The inverse distance law guarantees that the ratio of low frequency "mush" picked up by stage mics in close proximity to the center subs will be greater than if they were co-located in a vertical "pile" under the L/R mains.

Art
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John Chiara

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2015, 10:57:22 PM »

Assuming the source is decent, "mushy" bass is often caused by a time/phase misalignment between the subs and top cabinets in the crossover region. To be "in phase", the output of the various cabinets should be within 1/4 wavelength, which is only 2.8 feet at a crossover of 100 Hz.
This begs the question, what is a reasonable fashion to "pile" a decent sized pile of subs ?
Ed,

Assuming the mains are L/R, a horizontal center sub array guarantees that there will be virtually no place in the room where the subs will be phase aligned to the mains in the crossover region. The inverse distance law guarantees that the ratio of low frequency "mush" picked up by stage mics in close proximity to the center subs will be greater than if they were co-located in a vertical "pile" under the L/R mains.

Art

I observe this often. The people deploying think it's the 'right' way to do it.
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Luke Geis

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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 12:12:09 AM »

Easy fix. Only put one stack of subs under one side of the PA. Can't be any more wrong than it is right..........
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Re: defining mushy bass
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 12:12:09 AM »


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