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Author Topic: Meyer Constellation effectiveness  (Read 5506 times)

Lee Buckalew

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 06:22:20 pm »

I've never heard one in a reflective space. Nor do I think I want to. IMHO (not having the experience in a highly reflective space) I think your just adding more crap and making it worse. Using electronics to mitigate poor acoustics doesn't work well unless your considering a dead room to have poor acoustics (which you are not) and are trying to engance with electronics. I don't see an enhancement in your situation.

Agreed and, so I am very clear, my opinion is that this is not the correct direction (at least not step 1) for this client. 

Thanks,
Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 06:24:42 pm »

The only cost effective thing that pops into mind is diffusers.  How much height is there?  I'd look to break up the space with some hangs and some columns around the periphery.

Dick,
There are some very good acoustical options given the room layout.  Not much height to deal with once you take into account the sight lines from the balcony.

Thanks,
Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 08:04:07 pm »

While we are on the topic, here is something that many people overlook when considering "enhancement" systems.

And if you think getting decent acoustic treatment is expensive-then read on.

One important factor is the NC of the room.  The Noise Criteria.

This is a curve-not an absolute value of the SPL of the noise in the room.  The lower freq are allowed to be louder (SPL wise) than the higher freq (that we can hear easier) to have the same point on the curve.

This is how loud the ambient noise in the room in.  The main offender is the HVAC system

HOWEVER in modern rooms there is often A LOT of noise in the ceiling WHERE THE MICS ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Things such as projector fans, moving light fans etc, can add up to quite a bit of noise.

I did a room a while back that had an NC of around 35 (fairly good but not up to the HVAC standard of 25 for a house of worship)  UNTIL the projectors and lights kicked on.  Then it went up to around 50.

I have seen modern room where 50-60 is "normal".

BTW the HVAC industry has a "standard" for a house of worship to be NC of 25.  That is pretty darn quiet.  REALLY quiet for a normal large space.

Of all the Churches I have worked in (well over 500), I have only been in ONE, that had and NC of 25.  And it was an OLD OLD building, but the guy in charge knew the importance of a quiet HVAC, especially in a live room.

It costs A LOT to get a quiet HVAC system in a large space.

But when you have a noisy system, that noise gets into the mics-that are then feed into the enhancement speakers, and the overall noise floor of the room goes up.

So with the noise floor higher, you need more PA gain before feedback for the main mics, and a higher capable enhancement system in order to get the system above the noise.

You HAVE to look at the TOTAL package-NOT just a couple of basics in order to get a system like this to work well/effectively.
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Ivan Beaver
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Benjamin Gingerich

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 09:25:13 pm »

I would be a little surprised if Meyer would even permit an install of a system without first dealing with the acoustics.

Ivan you mentioned "other systems" like the Constellation? Ive not heard of anything else sice VRAS was bought.
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Benjamin Gingerich
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 09:59:24 pm »

I would be a little surprised if Meyer would even permit an install of a system without first dealing with the acoustics.

Ivan you mentioned "other systems" like the Constellation? Ive not heard of anything else sice VRAS was bought.
LARES has the most number of "artifical systems" installed.

http://www.lares-lexicon.com/welcome.html

There are others, some with very limited capability.

For example the Yamaha system can only stretch the reverb out to twice the natural reverb of the room.  This is the "purest" approach, but is very limited as compared to the other systems.

I had my own little system that I installed in a couple of rooms.  We called it "BVERB".

I was not trying to fool European acousticians, just some "southern Baptists" :)

It actually worked VERY well and was much less expensive.

In the largest one I did, there was a 2500 seat sanctuary with a 400 seat choir loft.

The choir room was just like the choir loft-but a much smaller room.  So it sounded QUITE different when they sang in the different rooms.

So I used TEF and polar ETC and measured the reflections both in level-time and freq response, but also the azimuth and elevation.

We installed speakers to simulate the large room reflections and I programmed it so that it got better than I expected.

I was quite pleased with the results.

I also programmed a couple of "fun" settings for them to sing in highly reverberant rooms and so forth.
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Ivan Beaver
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Robert Healey

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 10:49:21 am »

I would be a little surprised if Meyer would even permit an install of a system without first dealing with the acoustics.

Ivan you mentioned "other systems" like the Constellation? Ive not heard of anything else sice VRAS was bought.

There are a few major systems:

- Meyer Constellation
- ACS (http://www.acs.eu/)
- LARES (I believe that LARES has split - Steve Barbar is no longer with Lexicon and now calling his system E-coustic systems while Lexicon has recently teamed up with Wenger to continue that branch of the LARES system: http://www.wengercorp.com/transcend/)
- Yamaha
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Frederik Rosenkjśr

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 02:37:25 pm »

Thank you Ivan.  I understand this but Needed to hear from a system user.


Why?

1. You don't necessarily need to have tried something to say it won't work.
2. It's going to be difficult to find someone who's tried it, if anyone will tell you right away that it won't work.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 03:30:37 pm »

Why?

1. You don't necessarily need to have tried something to say it won't work.
2. It's going to be difficult to find someone who's tried it, if anyone will tell you right away that it won't work.

Answer to:
1)  Because the client has some ideas of their own that this would be a great thing for them and having first hand experience would go a long way toward getting them to rethink some priorities.

2) I already have a very good idea that it won't work and why but it's always good for me to hear from someone who has used something and see what they are saying.  I am seeing write ups with rave reviews of Constellation in high ambient noise restaurants and the positive enhancement that the system has provided in that atmosphere.  Sometimes I find that what I have "known" about a system or a technology changes over time with new technologies, etc.  Just wanted to confirm what I have experienced in the past is still the case here.

Thanks,
Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 05:30:01 pm »

Answer to:
1)  Because the client has some ideas of their own that this would be a great thing for them and having first hand experience would go a long way toward getting them to rethink some priorities.

2) I already have a very good idea that it won't work and why but it's always good for me to hear from someone who has used something and see what they are saying.  I am seeing write ups with rave reviews of Constellation in high ambient noise restaurants and the positive enhancement that the system has provided in that atmosphere.  Sometimes I find that what I have "known" about a system or a technology changes over time with new technologies, etc.  Just wanted to confirm what I have experienced in the past is still the case here.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee,
Are you a Meyer dealer? Have you spoke with them? If your getting good reviews about it working well in smaller spaces. With this product I'm pretty sure Meyer has their hand in most if not all of them.

T
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Robert Healey

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Re: Meyer Constellation effectiveness
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 05:37:30 pm »


2) I already have a very good idea that it won't work and why but it's always good for me to hear from someone who has used something and see what they are saying.  I am seeing write ups with rave reviews of Constellation in high ambient noise restaurants and the positive enhancement that the system has provided in that atmosphere.  Sometimes I find that what I have "known" about a system or a technology changes over time with new technologies, etc.  Just wanted to confirm what I have experienced in the past is still the case here.

Thanks,
Lee

Constellation is used for a different purpose in the restaurants - there, it is essentially a fancy sound masking system. The idea is that if you make the restaurant totally dead acoustically it will be too quiet and a table will overhear conversation from the next table over. No acoustic treatment and the restaurant will get too loud very fast. Constellation allows you to start with a totally dead room and play around getting the exact amount of reverberation you want to make sound from the next table over unintelligible while setting a limit on how loud the space gets.
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