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Author Topic: Snare drum peaking subs  (Read 5745 times)

Rich Orde

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Snare drum peaking subs
« on: July 26, 2015, 10:14:27 pm »

Hey all,

From time to time in high volume situations I have been having a problem with the snare drum clipping the subs.  I will try to give you as much detail as possible.

We are using 8 JBL VRX918SP subs crossed over at 80Hz, and on the snare channel the EQ is mostly flat with a low cut at 120Hz.  I am using a Behringer X32 rack with iPad control.

As a test I isolated the subs and had the drummer hit his snare drum to the point where the subs peak.  While sticking my head in front of the sub during this, there is barely a thing coming out.  Mind you, the kick drum will knock you on your butt without peaking the amp.

The drummer's snare has a standard coated head without much dampening and is pretty thin sounding on its own.  It is being mic'ed with an SM57 from the top.  I have tried another 57 with the same result.

I used the snare EQ to notch out around 280Hz which definitely helped matters but still, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a sub crossed over at 80Hz would be having such a strong reaction to something in the 280 range, and especially something that barely comes out of the speaker.

Does anyone have an explanation why this would be happening and suggestions on how to remedy it?  I definitely like the presence of snare drum in the mix but at times it is constantly peaking the amp and that should not be happening.

Thanks
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2015, 10:58:28 pm »

Hey all,

From time to time in high volume situations I have been having a problem with the snare drum clipping the subs.  I will try to give you as much detail as possible.

We are using 8 JBL VRX918SP subs crossed over at 80Hz, and on the snare channel the EQ is mostly flat with a low cut at 120Hz.  I am using a Behringer X32 rack with iPad control.



A bit more detail would be helpful.
What is your signal path?
From the X32 you go to...?
From there to...?
Repeat

The DSP is set how on each cabinet?
For looping the audio from VRX918 to the cabinets DSP switches are set differently than if looping to the sub then to the top.

More details will help.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2015, 11:22:20 pm »

As a test I isolated the subs and had the drummer hit his snare drum to the point where the subs peak.  While sticking my head in front of the sub during this, there is barely a thing coming out.  Mind you, the kick drum will knock you on your butt without peaking the amp.

Does it do this if the snare mic is the only one turned on? Are you absolutely sure the high pass on the snare is engaged, and the crossover to the subs is really 80Hz?

Put a full range speaker on the sub amp and listen to the snare hits. Can you hear them now?

How are the subs fed?

Mac
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John L Nobile

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 08:46:51 am »

First thing I would try is to change the mic and channel. Maybe even a different board.
And are you using a HPF on the snare?
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Rich Orde

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 07:13:53 pm »

Thanks for the replies.  Here is some more information:

The signal path is SM57 directly into the X32, X32 outputs directly into the speakers which are active cabinets with built in crossovers.  The subs run at 80Hz and below and the internal crossover feeds the top cabinets (VRX932LAP) at 80Hz and up.

I have isolated the snare mic and it is definitely the source of the clipping.  I can't put a full range speaker on the bass amp because the speakers are self powered.  The snare is plenty powerful coming out of the upper cabinets but it doesn't clip the top cabinets except in maximum volume situations.  The subs always clip first.

I never verified the crossover frequency of the cabinets but what you hear coming out of them sounds like about 80Hz and below.  You don't hear any of the upper bass frequencies that "muddy up" the music.  The HPF is definitely engaged on the snare.  If I adjust the low cut frequency lower then I can hear low end coming off the snare.

It could be a quirk with the X32 preamp or some strange characteristic of the VRX cabinets but at this time I don't have another mixer to test with.  Trying a different mic would be an option but it's something that would have to be purchased.  Any suggestions on a good snare drum mic?
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 07:35:56 pm »


I have isolated the snare mic and it is definitely the source of the clipping. 

I never verified the crossover frequency of the cabinets but what you hear coming out of them sounds like about 80Hz and below.  You don't hear any of the upper bass frequencies that "muddy up" the music.  The HPF is definitely engaged on the snare.  If I adjust the low cut frequency lower then I can hear low end coming off the snare.


Somewhere in here...
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 07:47:18 pm »

Thanks for the replies.  Here is some more information:

The signal path is SM57 directly into the X32, X32 outputs directly into the speakers which are active cabinets with built in crossovers.  The subs run at 80Hz and below and the internal crossover feeds the top cabinets (VRX932LAP) at 80Hz and up.

I have isolated the snare mic and it is definitely the source of the clipping.  I can't put a full range speaker on the bass amp because the speakers are self powered.  The snare is plenty powerful coming out of the upper cabinets but it doesn't clip the top cabinets except in maximum volume situations.  The subs always clip first.

I never verified the crossover frequency of the cabinets but what you hear coming out of them sounds like about 80Hz and below.  You don't hear any of the upper bass frequencies that "muddy up" the music.  The HPF is definitely engaged on the snare.  If I adjust the low cut frequency lower then I can hear low end coming off the snare.

It could be a quirk with the X32 preamp or some strange characteristic of the VRX cabinets but at this time I don't have another mixer to test with.  Trying a different mic would be an option but it's something that would have to be purchased.  Any suggestions on a good snare drum mic?

In all of this writing you have not told us the signal path.
X32 outputs to which connector on which speaker, how does the line level then get to the next speaker, which speaker is it, then to the next, then to the next, etc., etc., etc..

Are the subs aux fed or do they take in full range and then send a band limited signal to the tops?
Is this run in stereo, dual mono, or just a dingle mono feed got everything?
Are all of the self powered subs clipping from the snare hits or just some?
If not all, which ones?

Lee
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 08:14:36 pm »

Thanks for the replies.  Here is some more information:

The signal path is SM57 directly into the X32, X32 outputs directly into the speakers which are active cabinets with built in crossovers.  The subs run at 80Hz and below and the internal crossover feeds the top cabinets (VRX932LAP) at 80Hz and up.

I have isolated the snare mic and it is definitely the source of the clipping.  I can't put a full range speaker on the bass amp because the speakers are self powered.  The snare is plenty powerful coming out of the upper cabinets but it doesn't clip the top cabinets except in maximum volume situations.  The subs always clip first.

I never verified the crossover frequency of the cabinets but what you hear coming out of them sounds like about 80Hz and below.  You don't hear any of the upper bass frequencies that "muddy up" the music.  The HPF is definitely engaged on the snare.  If I adjust the low cut frequency lower then I can hear low end coming off the snare.

It could be a quirk with the X32 preamp or some strange characteristic of the VRX cabinets but at this time I don't have another mixer to test with.  Trying a different mic would be an option but it's something that would have to be purchased.  Any suggestions on a good snare drum mic?

Since you don't hear the snare coming out of the sub, how do you know they're clipping? Since you are apparently hitting the sub with a full range signal, could your full range signal be clipping the input of the crossover in the subs? Unless the signal going to the sub is from an aux that only has the stuff you want in the subs the input is seeing your full range signal. I would feed the subs with an aux that does not have snare in it, and feed the full range with what you are using now.

Mac
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Rich Orde

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 10:00:16 pm »

In all of this writing you have not told us the signal path.
X32 outputs to which connector on which speaker, how does the line level then get to the next speaker, which speaker is it, then to the next, then to the next, etc., etc., etc..

Are the subs aux fed or do they take in full range and then send a band limited signal to the tops?
Is this run in stereo, dual mono, or just a dingle mono feed got everything?
Are all of the self powered subs clipping from the snare hits or just some?
If not all, which ones?

Lee
X32 to sub 1 input, lo pass @ 80Hz
sub 1 output to sub 2 input, xover bypass, lo pass @ 80Hz
sub 2 output to sub 3 input, xover bypass, lo pass @ 80Hz
sub 3 output to sub 4 input, xover hi pass, lo pass @ 80Hz
sub 4 output to VRX932 input



So in other words, each sub receives a full range signal, but the lo pass is set at 80Hz.

System is run in stereo and all subs peak simultaneously from the snare drum hit.  The only other time the peak lights blink is when the kick drum peaks it in max volume situations.

Quote
could your full range signal be clipping the input of the crossover in the subs?
That is a good point.  It's very possible that the subs are set up that the peak light is pre-crossover.  This would mean that the peak light blinking is not necessarily an indication of amp clipping.

The guy who owns the sound system had been working on setting it up with separate low and high outputs but he never finished doing it.  I guess getting that done would solve this problem.  That would be the next step.

Thanks





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Mac Kerr

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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 10:12:09 pm »

System is run in stereo and all subs peak simultaneously from the snare drum hit.  The only other time the peak lights blink is when the kick drum peaks it in max volume situations.
That is a good point.  It's very possible that the subs are set up that the peak light is pre-crossover.  This would mean that the peak light blinking is not necessarily an indication of amp clipping.

The guy who owns the sound system had been working on setting it up with separate low and high outputs but he never finished doing it.  I guess getting that done would solve this problem.  That would be the next step.

Thanks

The bypass switch does not mean there are no electronics in line. I expect the snare is clipping those input electronics. Use one of the aux outs from the console to drive the subs, only putting those instruments in the aux mix that make sense in the subs, kick, bass, keys, and use the full range feed that you are using now to just drive the full range system. No snare in the subs, no vocals, no guitar, no cymbals.

Mac
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Re: Snare drum peaking subs
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 10:12:09 pm »


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