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Author Topic: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question  (Read 11373 times)

Scott Wagner

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2015, 11:53:25 pm »

Ive got one EU3000is already and was reading earlier in a post about how to do it wirelessly.  I have run delays but always wired from my FOH position.  This location however that isn't an option.  I never thought to use standard wireless units to feed them and will have to tool around with what I currently have to see how that can work out.  I can handle the delay within the console, so that could be a good option.  Thinking a few more subs may be in order of course as well, I imagine 2 to 4 more will be about the extent I could expand it on that end.
More subs is always a good idea outside. Subs couple nicely when within a quarter wavelength (I use the crossover frequency to figure this out) of each other. For the delays, find the perfect delay and then add a few more ms. This helps to localize the sound to the FOH rig (more or less transparent delay speakers).
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Rob Spence

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2015, 11:57:27 pm »

As Tim M has stated many times, the cost to move up a level is the sum of all you have ever spent to get to where you are now.

To get sound out further, it has to be louder initially and be up higher.  This means bigger, heavier, more expensive boxes (you may trade these values), more amplification and more electric power and more stuff to transport.

So, you may be able to get a couple of "bigger" boxes for $7k, but now you need to spend on lifts or scaff, power amps, power cables, and a distro with feeders perhaps adding another $7k. Oh, and now you are lacking in subs and that is really gonna add to transport, amps and power. Then you may need more crew too.

The advice to either milk what you have (dual pa might get you by - try it), put in delays (rent a couple of small Hondas to try it) before you buy it) or bite the bullet and spend.

Edit: and since you already have one, try one for a first experiment and see if it helps. Don't go too far away with the delays. 75-100' from mains.


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« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 12:01:30 am by Rob Spence »
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2015, 10:29:37 am »

Those of you that have been on here a while have watched my journey.  The rig has come a long way from what it started.
This year I have been swamped with all kinds of gigs.  I don't do this for the money ( but I don't undercut ), but have found recently as I get hired for some of the larger gigs, I am reaching my systems capabilities.  Mostly outdoor biker nights where the noise floor is high etc etc, I am really riding it to get the most out of it. 300 to 400 feet back and people are still beyond that.

I sold off my JBL powered rig a couple years ago after it went thermal on an outdoor gig and got a KW rig (4 - 153's and 4 - 181's), its been rock solid.  I found at my last biker gig, I was pushing the tops into clip and was really having to work them hard having to run everything through them unlike inside.  Coverage wise I was only using one set on the subs, because I didn't need the width of coverage.  I am thinking of running the dual set up this month with Vox in one set, instruments in the other to see if I can get further output, but I don't really like having that be my bandaid fix.  Bass wise, I know I was pushing them, I stacked and centered them together, Ive always been surprised at the output of them for the size/cost for front loaded.

I love quick set ups, I like the powered rig especially for my indoor gigs, one set of subs and tops and I am GTG.

I am debating if it would be better to sell 2 - 181's and 2 - 153's since I only need the full current rig outdoors, and then purchase a more efficient outdoor rig ( I know I would have to cough up some cash, but hoping there is an option that isn't going to run me to much).  I could use the 153's and 181's for sidefills or drum subs if needed then.

Is there a solution cost wise lets say 6 or 7k that could get me there?  I am not really into stacking 10 subs and 4 tops a side if you catch my drift, but if that's the best solution so be it, but concerned the 153's aren't really giving me what I need outdoors. 

Most out door places I run at don't have a distro option but have multiple circuits that are clean, hence another reason the powered option has worked really well for here so far as I just run lines to two circuits and am GTG.

I have been reading posts and of course I see Danley TH118's mentioned a lot for sub duty, cost wise doesn't look like that would be an option by the time I add power.  JTR seems like maybe some options but I am sure I am missing stuff.  I haven't been following the power and speaker craze the last couple years, and recal reading certain crown amps had issues etc etc, so just looking to be pointed in the right direction or if I am way off and it isn't an option.

Style of music, country, mostly rock, sometimes Metal (or whatever its called now days).  Local bands. 

Looking for a sanity check.

Are you sure you actually need it to be that much louder than you're running now? Or are you really just trying to get over top the bikes just when they fire up? Is anyone asking you to turn it up? Is the crowd complaining it's not loud enough?   

I go to these types of events often, and when I'm in the parking lot looking at other people's bikes, I don't want loud music, I want to be able to have a conversation. When I want to hear the band I move closer to the stage.

As far as competing with the bikes: the bikes already make the entire event too loud for humans; do you really think the event organizers want the music to be even louder than that? IKD, maybe they do, but I would think they are already on the verge of noise complaints from the local jurisdiction as is.

If it's literally just a concert, then yes, you want to give good levels to the entire crowd, but these types of events where the band is just part of the event, do they really need to feel the music or just hear it? I think as sound guys we often make assumptions about how loud the crowd actually wants the music.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 07:19:29 pm by Scott Olewiler »
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Lee Douglas

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2015, 11:25:22 am »

My suggestions to work with what you've got and spend minimally is pretty much covered, but to encapsulate and add to it:
 
*Buy scaffolding to get your tops up higher.  You could rent as needed, but purchasing means you won't have dry wall mud and paint drips all over it and can even paint or powder coat them black for a more stage ready appearance.
*Add stage fills if needed.  Raising you tops up may reduce your coverage in front of the stage. KW122 might work well for this, would hopefully be similar timbre to you tops and could be used as monitors for other applications.
*Buy more subs.  I would typically bring twice the subs for half the gig you mention. 
*Center cluster the subs you do have for better coupling, but be wary of the changes in how they cover your area. 
*Delay speakers on trees for additional coverage.  I like mine right behind the sound booth at something like this, so I can keep my eye on them, power is handy and no wireless is needed.  Again KW122 might work well here.

Other than buying more subs, most of that can be tried for the price of an inexpensive rental if you don't already have it. 
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Scott Wagner

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2015, 12:19:14 pm »


*Center cluster the subs you do have for better coupling, but be wary of the changes in how they cover your area. 
Hint: As the line length increases (ie: more subs in a line) the array becomes larger, allowing pattern control to lower frequencies. A line of subs (assuming they're within a quarter wavelength of each other - center to center) will couple (increasing output), and will also gain pattern control to lower frequencies (narrowing your coverage). It might seem like deploying a long line of subs across the front of the stage would increase coverage, but the opposite is true. You'll loose sub energy to the sides (which may be a benefit or a curse depending on your needs that day).
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Doug Fowler

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2015, 12:42:37 pm »

Those of you that have been on here a while have watched my journey.  The rig has come a long way from what it started.
This year I have been swamped with all kinds of gigs.  I don't do this for the money ( but I don't undercut ), but have found recently as I get hired for some of the larger gigs, I am reaching my systems capabilities.  Mostly outdoor biker nights where the noise floor is high etc etc, I am really riding it to get the most out of it. 300 to 400 feet back and people are still beyond that.

I sold off my JBL powered rig a couple years ago after it went thermal on an outdoor gig and got a KW rig (4 - 153's and 4 - 181's), its been rock solid.  I found at my last biker gig, I was pushing the tops into clip and was really having to work them hard having to run everything through them unlike inside.  Coverage wise I was only using one set on the subs, because I didn't need the width of coverage.  I am thinking of running the dual set up this month with Vox in one set, instruments in the other to see if I can get further output, but I don't really like having that be my bandaid fix.  Bass wise, I know I was pushing them, I stacked and centered them together, Ive always been surprised at the output of them for the size/cost for front loaded.

I love quick set ups, I like the powered rig especially for my indoor gigs, one set of subs and tops and I am GTG.

I am debating if it would be better to sell 2 - 181's and 2 - 153's since I only need the full current rig outdoors, and then purchase a more efficient outdoor rig ( I know I would have to cough up some cash, but hoping there is an option that isn't going to run me to much).  I could use the 153's and 181's for sidefills or drum subs if needed then.

Is there a solution cost wise lets say 6 or 7k that could get me there?  I am not really into stacking 10 subs and 4 tops a side if you catch my drift, but if that's the best solution so be it, but concerned the 153's aren't really giving me what I need outdoors. 

Most out door places I run at don't have a distro option but have multiple circuits that are clean, hence another reason the powered option has worked really well for here so far as I just run lines to two circuits and am GTG.

I have been reading posts and of course I see Danley TH118's mentioned a lot for sub duty, cost wise doesn't look like that would be an option by the time I add power.  JTR seems like maybe some options but I am sure I am missing stuff.  I haven't been following the power and speaker craze the last couple years, and recal reading certain crown amps had issues etc etc, so just looking to be pointed in the right direction or if I am way off and it isn't an option.

Style of music, country, mostly rock, sometimes Metal (or whatever its called now days).  Local bands. 

Looking for a sanity check.

Local bands only, rock, metal, etc....

If you can find some used Peavey QW1 and QW215, you can sport a loud rig with a fair amount of directivity, of which you have neither at this time.  They might be hard to find.

My "ultimate budget rock rig that doesn't care about riders" could quite possibly be a pair of QW1s per side, with a QW215 sandwiched between them.  The Peavey QW218 subs are quality kit, inefficient but amp power is pretty cheap now.  You would need at least 4 to keep up with the rest of the rig.

A competent tuneup of this rig would most likely yield positive results.

I have not used these loudspeakers, but a forum member speaks quite highly of them:

http://peavey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19269

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Jerome Casinger

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2015, 04:21:57 pm »

There are some good bits in there for me to chew on.  The organizers want the event loud of course, but I am not going to bring or invest in stuff that doesn't make sense for the what the gig pays.  They have done a good job on the location of the stage making sure there is a "concert section" that needs the coverage, but the food, vendors, etc are all well outside of that.  On the other hand the gig does pay well, and is becoming consistent enough I want to ensure I am doing it justice of course. 

It has been a while since I have played around in the software on different sub deployments, and will start getting back into it.  Looks like I need to add more no matter what (I knew this part, just wanted to wait and see if the money was best spent on a different rig).

Doug - I actually have run on the QW Series and have probably well over a couple hundred hours on that rig which was out by you in Alton, Il.  It was inside, but none the less, it was a great system, but yes the subs were extremely power hungry.  I almost bought a similar used rig like it for myself a couple years ago but at the time couldn't justify its ROI.  Haven't really seen much pop up on them recently, and actually it kind of fell out of my memory as an option, but you are correct it may be an option for me to atleast keep my eyes on depending on where this goes.

I have a pretty simple option to get the boxes and extra couple feet in the air that I may try and see if that makes any difference.  I appreciate the sanity check. 

Thanks again everyone for your comments, I think I will first start with the Dual PA and get some more subs.  If that doesn't fair well delays may be the next option, but for me they have to be wireless at this event.  I don't have enough cable ramp with the location I would have to be in and wont have loose wire out.

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2015, 04:28:06 pm »

Jerome...

I agree with the post advising you to consider investing in your own generator:

1.  Enough power

2.  Your own power independent of vendors and such.

3.  The chance to eliminate long, expensive cable runs which also raise your liability profile.

Edit:

Remember, I know it all...
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Rob Spence

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2015, 05:19:26 pm »

Jerome, I think you said your mix position was more or less in line with one mains stack. If so, you have power there and could put one delay right behind you. Use your generator and a wireless for the other delay.


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Rick Powell

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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2015, 09:05:49 pm »

For a "big rig" upgrade and cheap as you can go, you might be able to double your budget, go bargain hunting and get some stacks and racks, like 6-8 Lab Subs and 4 EAW KF650 or Community SLS 960 used.  Lab Subs are great when they are properly constructed (but totally dependent on building exactly to plan with good workmanship) and I have seen them go as cheap as $750 each on the used market...and the KF650 and SLS 960 I have seen go as cheap as $1 to $1.5k a box.  Power is relatively cheap these days, lots of old QSC Powerlight and Crown MacroTechs floating around, but they soak power compared to more modern Class D designs.  The KF650 sounds much better when the EAW processing is used, and the processor will cost $1 to 2.5k used depending on which one you get. Also, there is a hole between the top of the Lab Sub's natural range and the bottom of the SLS 960's...you might find you are crossing higher than you otherwise would want to with the Lab to cover the hole.   

Otherwise, for outdoors, more is better with low end...if nothing else add a few 181's for more muscle in the low end for outdoors.  a 2:1 sub/top ratio is not uncommon for outdoors.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 11:11:34 pm by Rick Powell »
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Re: What would you do in my shoes...another Upgrade question
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2015, 09:05:49 pm »


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