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Author Topic: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?  (Read 7273 times)

David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 08:31:45 am »

 A few years ago I put a bunch of subs with great low frequency response into an install. The problem I found was that most of the music the customer ended up playing was classic rock. Music that was not mastered or recorded with the ability to even have a clue what was happening below 40hz. It turns out the extended frequency response of the subwoofers just brought forward a bunch of low frequency muck, that was never intended on being heard. At the customers request, the HPF got moved up a little. Having crazy low frequency extension is great if your material needs it, but can be detrimental if not. So... YMMV


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Scott Carneval

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 09:07:36 am »

That is a nice comparison.  I assume you captured the trace when the lowest notes were being played?

Yeah, I just watched/listened and waited for the 'drop'.  A few times I had to rewind the track to catch the right note.  I was sort of surprised that Skrillex didn't go lower than 40, and I was really shocked to see Peter Gabriel at 32!
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Goerge Thomas

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 01:20:02 pm »

So are you saying that if they are willing to pay more-then you will lower the highpass filter?

What if they want to go to 30Hz, are your subs capable of doing that without being strained?

If so, then why not just keep the filter that low.

If you have to rent additional subs to get to 30Hz, then I would argue that is not "at minimal effort or expense". 

Agreed that not everybody needs that low extension, but when you have it, it just makes everything better.

I don't keep it that low when my equipment cannot reproduce those frequencies at the volumes the subs are run at to give my client the volume he wants it at. I will not risk my equipment or waste power needlessly if at the output they are used at, any lower frequency would not be noticeable with my gear.

If you are saying I owe it to them to lower it then I would have to say I disagree. They have other options in providers and I explain what my gear can and cannot do before they sign me.

If you are saying if a show calls for music that plays Specifically low but my gear can't play quite THAT low At the volumes asked but can go low enough for client satisfaction At the price they pay me that I should turn the job down... Then I say that you and I are different businessmen.

I try to do the best job with what I have and am afforded. My limitations to clients are clear and I always provide options for clients when they want more than what I can provide.

I can see now that while this is generated some interesting discussion, my original question should have been more along the lines of asking about a Factual comparison. A comparison of output and low-frequency extension between four lab subs that are Powered and processed properly and four vr218s powered and processed properly with both setups center clustered.

Thanks everyone for their input this far.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 01:32:31 pm by Goerge Thomas »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 08:05:42 pm »

Yeah, I just watched/listened and waited for the 'drop'.  A few times I had to rewind the track to catch the right note.  I was sort of surprised that Skrillex didn't go lower than 40, and I was really shocked to see Peter Gabriel at 32!

Which version of Sledgehammer?
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Scott Carneval

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 09:10:16 pm »


Which version of Sledgehammer?

I was only aware that one version existed. I didn't notice til you asked, but it's been remastered. Here's a screenshot (I was playing it last night thru my Mac, but I also have it on the iPhone)




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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 09:47:37 pm »

A comparison of output and low-frequency extension between four lab subs that are Powered and processed properly and four vr218s powered and processed properly with both setups center clustered.

Thanks everyone for their input this far.

I've not setup or driven a rig with VR218, but I've heard them used and was impressed with the output and found the subjective sound to be acceptable for the use they were given.

I've heard a couple iterations of the LABhorn, one of them decidedly compromised.  The better-built units were impressive and I suspect the measured output would exceed that of the VR218.

Those things said I suspect that if you and your clients are accustomed to the 2nd and 3rd order harmonic content of reflex loaded subs you may not immediately take to horn loaded subs.  The harmonic contribution can nearly equal the level of the fundamental and you get a fair bit of "gack" that you cannot simply EQ away.  That will be gone.  So will the sound of additional distortion as you approach Xmax.  IF you really* slam the LABhorn you'll toast the drivers before you hear the sound of stress.  *really is a relative term, as it will take half (or less) of the power the VR218 take to achieve the same SPL.

All loudspeaker designs are exercises in compromise.  In the case of horns you get output and efficiency at the expense of size & weight; for reflex designs you get output and extension at the expense of distortion and efficiency.

Goerge, it's hard to talk about direct comparisons because there are so many different things to compare to each other - the matrix would be huge - and for the most part there are no comparisons to discuss.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 10:29:28 pm »

I was only aware that one version existed. I didn't notice til you asked, but it's been remastered. Here's a screenshot (I was playing it last night thru my Mac, but I also have it on the iPhone)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally released on "So" in 1986.  Then on the 1990 compilation you found; again on "Hit" in 2003, and "So" was also remixed/remastered for a 25th Anniversary edition that was sold on Gabriel's site.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Goerge Thomas

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 10:48:22 pm »

I've not setup or driven a rig with VR218, but I've heard them used and was impressed with the output and found the subjective sound to be acceptable for the use they were given.

I've heard a couple iterations of the LABhorn, one of them decidedly compromised.  The better-built units were impressive and I suspect the measured output would exceed that of the VR218.

Those things said I suspect that if you and your clients are accustomed to the 2nd and 3rd order harmonic content of reflex loaded subs you may not immediately take to horn loaded subs.  The harmonic contribution can nearly equal the level of the fundamental and you get a fair bit of "gack" that you cannot simply EQ away.  That will be gone.  So will the sound of additional distortion as you approach Xmax.  IF you really* slam the LABhorn you'll toast the drivers before you hear the sound of stress.  *really is a relative term, as it will take half (or less) of the power the VR218 take to achieve the same SPL.

All loudspeaker designs are exercises in compromise.  In the case of horns you get output and efficiency at the expense of size & weight; for reflex designs you get output and extension at the expense of distortion and efficiency.

Goerge, it's hard to talk about direct comparisons because there are so many different things to compare to each other - the matrix would be huge - and for the most part there are no comparisons to discuss.

Thanks Tim. Good food for thought. I appreciate that. 
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William Abel

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2015, 08:29:37 am »

George,

I own 2)VR218's and 4)VR118's, I've used them outdoors, they we're fine for live bands but, seemed to be lacking for dance music. I built 6-LABhorns (I'm a cabinet maker) and used 4-LABs with the same tops in the same outdoor area the following year for dance music. The 4-LABhorns easily out did the 18" subs. Personally I love the horn clarity and punch. As posted earlier, the LABhorns need to be well constructed.

Bill   
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Jacob Shaw

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2015, 11:31:47 pm »

I produce electronic music, and I can assure you that any content below 40hz has harmonics that are audible.  I failed to add harmonics to a bassline for the first tune I sent to get mastered, and the engineer added it for me (using a mild distortion plugin).  Tubes do this to instruments, and even the classic 808 bass has harmonics.  A strait up sine wave as a bass instrument simply does not have the impact to be noticed/recognized. 

I will say that it is rather important to reproduce those notes.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2015, 11:31:47 pm »


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