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Author Topic: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?  (Read 7188 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2015, 11:48:49 am »

Even though you say you don't need sub 50 hz, there's nothing wrong with having it available. You might even find out you've been missing something all along!
EXACTLY

Many people say they don't anything low, but they have never heard a system that can do it properly/easily.

Once you get "exposed" to true solid deep bass, there is no going back--------
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Goerge Thomas

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2015, 07:31:05 pm »

EXACTLY

Many people say they don't anything low, but they have never heard a system that can do it properly/easily.

Once you get "exposed" to true solid deep bass, there is no going back--------

Things I need versus what I want on a budget have to be factored in sometimes!  ;D
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2015, 08:19:21 pm »

Things I need versus what I want on a budget have to be factored in sometimes!  ;D
So ask yourself this question.

The artist put those sounds on the recording (or produces them live) because HE WANTS people to hear them and they are a part of the music.

When you can't reproduce them, you are not doing the music justice.

A comment heard after a demo a few weeks ago at Infocomm
"So THAT is what the song is supposed to sound like"  YEAH!

And it is not just EDM or dance music.  What about a pipe organ?  Or a concert bass drum? Or the low F on some pianos.

Most systems can't even reproduce the low B on a 5 string bass-and that is used in many forms of music.

Here is a graph of some traditional instruments to give an idea that low freq DO exist in normal music.


So YES it DOES matter

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Scott Carneval

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 09:58:02 pm »

Pretty much out of sheer boredom I just ran a few songs through the spectrum analyzer in SMAART.  These are all 320kbps MP3 files, so take that however you'd like.

EDM:
Calvin Harris - Feels So Close - had plenty of LF content centered at 41hz.  (Royal Blue Trace)
Skrillex - Promises - had a lot of LF at 49hz and had a much quieter note at 35hz (Green Trace)
Skrillex - Cinema - was centered at 46.9hz with not much below that (Orange Trace)
Major Lazer - Lean On - had content centered at 38hz (Purple Trace)


Hip-Hop:
Meek Mill - Check - LF Centered at 35.2 hz (Orange Trace)
T-Wayne - Nasty Freestyle - LF at 26.4 hz (Red Trace)
Big Sean - IDFWU - LF at 29.3 hz (Blue Trace)
OT Genasis - CoCo - LF at 38.1 hz (Purple Trace)

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Scott Carneval

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2015, 10:18:17 pm »

And a few older tracks for comparison:

Peter Gabriel - Sledgehammer - 32.2hz (Purple Trace)
Nu Shooz - I Can't Wait - 38.1hz (Red Trace)
Usher - Yeah! - 41hz (Blue Trace)
Stevie Wonder - Do I Do - Peak at 65hz but had content at 47hz too (-7db) (Green Trace)
MJ - Billie Jean - 47hz (Orange Trace)
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Goerge Thomas

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2015, 11:16:59 pm »

So ask yourself this question.

The artist put those sounds on the recording (or produces them live) because HE WANTS people to hear them and they are a part of the music.

When you can't reproduce them, you are not doing the music justice.

A comment heard after a demo a few weeks ago at Infocomm
"So THAT is what the song is supposed to sound like"  YEAH!

And it is not just EDM or dance music.  What about a pipe organ?  Or a concert bass drum? Or the low F on some pianos.

Most systems can't even reproduce the low B on a 5 string bass-and that is used in many forms of music.

Here is a graph of some traditional instruments to give an idea that low freq DO exist in normal music.


So YES it DOES matter

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html

I would certainly agree that matters, Ivan. However, we are all for the most part in this as business folk and know fully well that there are almost always compromises when it comes to providing sound. If a client comes to me with a very specific budget with a set of criteria and I tell them that with their budget that I cannot meet all of their criteria but most of their criteria, they generally are happy. It is my job to make the most of what I am tasked with.

I generally cross my subs over at 45 HZ so that I can get the most out of them using what my clients have paid for. I generally make this very clear that they will sacrifice one thing for another when it comes to budgets and my services. In this case my clients have elected for output over extension.

With that being said, if with minimal effort or budget change I can give them a better result, I am almost always willing to pursue that for the results. This is part of why I am asking about merits of using different particular subs for this event even though my clients have been satisfied with the system in the same set up in the past.

Having said that, unfortunately I do not have the ability to go and give these subs a listen before I would commit. They (as a block of 4 rented) are budget friendly enough for my clients to agree to use them if I think it will be an noticeable improvement over our current equipment. Furthermore, the equipment that I'm talking about potentially using is not a widespread product that many have experience with so I am genuinely unsure when I ask these questions if it would be an improvement. I'm looking for subjective opinions.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 12:17:52 am by Goerge Thomas »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 07:44:18 am »



I generally cross my subs over at 45 HZ so that I can get the most out of them using what my clients have paid for. I generally make this very clear that they will sacrifice one thing for another when it comes to budgets and my services. In this case my clients have elected for output over extension.

With that being said, if with minimal effort or budget change I can give them a better result, I am almost always willing to pursue that for the results.
So are you saying that if they are willing to pay more-then you will lower the highpass filter?

What if they want to go to 30Hz, are your subs capable of doing that without being strained?

If so, then why not just keep the filter that low.

If you have to rent additional subs to get to 30Hz, then I would argue that is not "at minimal effort or expense". 

Agreed that not everybody needs that low extension, but when you have it, it just makes everything better.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 07:49:04 am »

Pretty much out of sheer boredom I just ran a few songs through the spectrum analyzer in SMAART.  These are all 320kbps MP3 files, so take that however you'd like.

EDM:
Calvin Harris - Feels So Close - had plenty of LF content centered at 41hz.  (Royal Blue Trace)
Skrillex - Promises - had a lot of LF at 49hz and had a much quieter note at 35hz (Green Trace)
Skrillex - Cinema - was centered at 46.9hz with not much below that (Orange Trace)
Major Lazer - Lean On - had content centered at 38hz (Purple Trace)


Hip-Hop:
Meek Mill - Check - LF Centered at 35.2 hz (Orange Trace)
T-Wayne - Nasty Freestyle - LF at 26.4 hz (Red Trace)
Big Sean - IDFWU - LF at 29.3 hz (Blue Trace)
OT Genasis - CoCo - LF at 38.1 hz (Purple Trace)
That is a nice comparison.  I assume you captured the trace when the lowest notes were being played?
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Stephen Kirby

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 08:20:17 am »

Most systems can't even reproduce the low B on a 5 string bass-and that is used in many forms of music.

I think there are a few bass players on this forum.  I own a 5 string but I'm not normally a bass player.  What I've noticed is that most bass amps lose pitch definition below about G.  So other than the open E on the endless E funk jams, most bass players don't use the bottom 2-3 notes on a 4 string.  And 5 strings typically just make shifting a pattern easier in the middle of the neck instead of jumping their hand up and down.  Whenever you hear someone on a 5 string below the 5th fret, it's usually a pitchless rumble unless they've got an amazing amp.

Stuff done on synthesizers is an entirely different story.  Since that is often arranged listening though studio monitors with subs, folks get in love with low end.  And if you're providing for that, you should be able to go there.  I periodically do sound for a dance studio and while it's typically pop music, there's definitely 35Hz going on.  Fortunately the theater we do this in is pretty well balanced, and with room gain I have enough rig to get levels of those low notes that is enough for the parents to be impressed with the money their spending on their kiddies.  As Ivan often says, you can get very low notes out of almost anything, it's how loudly you can do it that matters.
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 08:29:08 am »

And 5 strings typically just make shifting a pattern easier in the middle of the neck instead of jumping their hand up and down.
I'm not a bass player, but I do play bass sometimes.  Once I was playing guitar and mandolin in a band and the bass player wanted to play another of his many and varied instruments so I took his five string bass from him and said I would play four fifths of it for the next song.
Within seconds I was using the fifth string.  Not for lower notes, just for the ease of playing.
 
 
Steve.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Four lab subs enough for small outdoor music festival?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 08:29:08 am »


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