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Author Topic: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out  (Read 13333 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2015, 10:47:32 pm »

But he's our arrogant man about town, and he's right.

Whether or not you think the laws of physics don't apply, they do.
Sometimes I don't like gravity-but not matter what-I still the "laws".

The same for the way sound propagates.

If only it moves as fast as light.  Then we could just do whatever we wanted-pile up as many speakers as we want and it would just get louder and louder and not sound worse.

But that is not the world we live in.

It is important to understand how things REALLY work-NOT how we would like them to.

Of course if people just want to ignore the "laws", then that is fine.

But once people start to UNDERSTAND what is REALLY HAPPENING, then a whole new world opens up to them, and things start to explain themselves.

But it also makes you realize how little you truly understand-as there is soooo much more.

There was a point several decades ago that I thought I had a "pretty good handle" on sound.  Once I started actually learning-I realized how little I actually knew.

But the FUN part, was that all of a sudden, various issues/problems etc that I had encountered in my previous decades of doing sound started making sense.

YES the little things matter.

Once you start to think of sound in terms of physical wavelength, and what real cancellation is, what causes it and so forth, then you start to realize how "little things" really matter.

But you Tim understand that.  Others-not so much.  Maybe in time
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Cailen Waddell

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2015, 10:48:46 pm »


Ok Ivan.  I am no big shot engineer like you, but my singer ( also my guitarist and therefore pretty static) likes it much better and having stood in his spot setting them up I notice nothing horrible, so I think i'll just keep on doing it.

How is the effect of a couple monitor wedges sitting next to each other pointing at a single spot bad and the effect of a center clustered gang of subs good?

Oh this is going to get good...  The short answer is physics.   The long answer I'll leave to Ivan.

*goes and makes popcorn*


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2015, 10:50:02 pm »

Ok Ivan.  I am no big shot engineer like you, but my singer ( also my guitarist and therefore pretty static) likes it much better and having stood in his spot setting them up I notice nothing horrible, so I think i'll just keep on doing it.

Having your singer like it does not change the laws of physics regarding constructive/destructive interference of the same sound waves emanating from different sources. 

Quote
How is the effect of a couple monitor wedges sitting next to each other pointing at a single spot bad and the effect of a center clustered gang of subs good?

The answer to this has been given dozens of times and a thorough search of the forums should answer it.  Given your truculent responses I doubt you're going to get spoon fed the answers you request.

Welcome to the Ignore List.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2015, 10:58:06 pm »

Ok Ivan.  I am no big shot engineer like you, but my singer ( also my guitarist and therefore pretty static) likes it much better and having stood in his spot setting them up I notice nothing horrible, so I think i'll just keep on doing it.

How is the effect of a couple monitor wedges sitting next to each other pointing at a single spot bad and the effect of a center clustered gang of subs good?
It all has to do with WAVELENGTH of the specific freq.

If you think in terms of freq that are within 1/4 wavelength of each other as adding, then you are fine.

Let's say the upper freq of the subs is 113Hz (just for easy math)

That is 10' long (lower freq are longer)

So 1/4" wavelegth is 2.5'.  It is NOT the distance between the sources, but the distance between the ARRIVAL at the listeners ears that matters.

You can hear this yourself by doing the little experiment I suggested earlier, or by putting pink noise into the monitors  and simply move your head around a little.

Let's look at 2Khz (the center freq of intelligibility for the English language).  2K is around 1/2 foot or 6 inches.  So 1/4 is around 1.5".

So when the arrivals are more than 1.5" apart, you will start to have "issues".

Here is a paper I wrote quite a few years ago-but the "rules" still apply, that should help explain things a little.

http://www.dbaudioandvideo.com/files/resource/loudspeaker_placement_rev041021.pdf

I never said your singer did not like it.  But in many cases people simply want 2 monitors because it makes them "feel" better so "special"

But that DOES NOT mean there not an issue that could not sound better by using only 1 speaker.

But for many people it is NOT about sounding good.  Often there are "other" things at play.

Just look at where sound quality comes into play when people buy line arrays.  Sound quality is not even in the top 3 or 4 reasons for buying a particular system.

But that is is a totally different situation, although the same combfiltering situation exists as when having 2 speakers covering the same area. 
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jamin Lynch

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2015, 11:19:40 pm »

Try explaining all that to a singer and you will just get a blank stare. ::)
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2015, 11:33:44 pm »

Try explaining all that to a singer and you will just get a blank stare. ::)
That's why we're the sound persons

The singers lack of understanding does not make it wrong.
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Jim Rutherford

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2015, 11:47:56 pm »

We have a new singer who is requesting dual monitors for our gig tomorrow.  I tried to explain all of the issues.  Yes, it's about ego.  We won't have a lot of time for sound check, so my first strategy is to vocals in one and band in the other.  Any other suggestions?  I'm fearful that this guy will eat up or time trying to get what he wants.
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John L Nobile

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2015, 02:24:32 am »

I've always thought that anyone that needed 2 monitors was deaf. Never thought of it as a visual thing. But I am starting to see that sound is more of a visual thing to some people.
You do have to do whatever it takes to keep the performers happy. I've seen 3 monitors on one guy. Makes him look very important. The other guys with one or 2 look less important. A 12 foot LA looks much more impressive than a single box. You don't have a choice when the guy paying the bill listens with his eyes.
My boss was wondering why I went with point source boxes. After he heard them he stopped wondering. Luckily he judged with his ears.
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Robert Lofgren

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2015, 03:16:20 am »

We have a new singer who is requesting dual monitors for our gig tomorrow.  I tried to explain all of the issues.  Yes, it's about ego.  We won't have a lot of time for sound check, so my first strategy is to vocals in one and band in the other.  Any other suggestions?  I'm fearful that this guy will eat up or time trying to get what he wants.
Tell him that iem's are the best cool thing and by getting tripple drivers he'll get SIX speakers aimed straight into his ears.  8)
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2015, 05:26:19 am »

What fucking profanity?  Neither Bob nor I have been asked to stop using properly placed expletives.  This is an adult group.

I do need to learn to turn it off.  The youth pastor suggested to me that telling the teen worship group they "sounded like shit and to get their head in the game,  its not a race to finish the song" through the hoot and holler mic was a bit much.  Whatever, I got a round of yes sirs and results.



I'm ROTFLMFAO. Or, Rolling on the floor laughing my fucking ass off. I don't condone a constant barrage of foul language in every statement, however, when I read statements such as those made by young David I'll often think or respond with a "What the fuck, are you shitting me." In other cases a simple "pull your head out of your ass." may suffice. In the latter case the word ass in combination with the insertion of ones head may be objectionable, but it is not foul language. Another example may be "He snatched the pussy, put it in a box, then threw it on the airplane. The pussy was never seen again." This might even be heard in a Disney movie, and only those whose minds remain in the gutter may take offense. In the end though David might be better served by simplifying the response to a simple statement. "Physics is fucking physics." 
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I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2015, 05:26:19 am »


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