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Author Topic: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out  (Read 13331 times)

Mike Sullivan

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Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« on: July 03, 2015, 01:38:05 am »

So I just wanted to gather some info from the collective internet engineers on here...when doing a matched pair of monitors for a band, do you usually do horns in or horns out?  I've done shows with passive (but bi-amped) wedges where the system tech set the monitors up with the horns to the outside of the pair, and the acts had no issues, but when I did them with my smaller powered wedges (RCF ART 312's) there were complaints until I turned them around and did "horns in" and they said the sound improved dramatically.  My guess is that it would have to do with the crossover points in the passive vs. the powered wedges.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 02:36:09 am »

So I just wanted to gather some info from the collective internet engineers on here...when doing a matched pair of monitors for a band, do you usually do horns in or horns out?  I've done shows with passive (but bi-amped) wedges where the system tech set the monitors up with the horns to the outside of the pair, and the acts had no issues, but when I did them with my smaller powered wedges (RCF ART 312's) there were complaints until I turned them around and did "horns in" and they said the sound improved dramatically.  My guess is that it would have to do with the crossover points in the passive vs. the powered wedges.

I would stand in front of the speakers in both configurations and listen.  Near field interaction is hard to model your ears are the best test instrument.  Stand in the same distance as the musician was.

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Keith Broughton

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 07:39:27 am »

So I just wanted to gather some info from the collective internet engineers on here...when doing a matched pair of monitors for a band, do you usually do horns in or horns out?  I've done shows with passive (but bi-amped) wedges where the system tech set the monitors up with the horns to the outside of the pair, and the acts had no issues, but when I did them with my smaller powered wedges (RCF ART 312's) there were complaints until I turned them around and did "horns in" and they said the sound improved dramatically.  My guess is that it would have to do with the crossover points in the passive vs. the powered wedges.
An interesting question.
I try as much as possible to only use 1 wedge as it creates less comb filtering and is somewhat easier to EQ.
However, with dual wedges, a couple of considerations...
Cardioid and hyper cardioid mics have differnt off axis high frequency response so keep that in mind when placing wedges.
I tend to favour horns out to start with and spread the wedges apart more than the usual foot or so.
There is no perfect solution so, as previously suggested, try both.
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 08:36:29 am »

Typically you put the horns out. <o o>

You don't usually have a choice with most powered wedges due to the connectors in the back. You have to go woofer horn-woofer horn.  o> o>
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 11:49:39 am »

An interesting question.
I try as much as possible to only use 1 wedge as it creates less comb filtering and is somewhat easier to EQ.
However, with dual wedges, a couple of considerations...
Cardioid and hyper cardioid mics have differnt off axis high frequency response so keep that in mind when placing wedges.
I tend to favour horns out to start with and spread the wedges apart more than the usual foot or so.
There is no perfect solution so, as previously suggested, try both.
Exactly.

One than 1 source of sound is GOING TO-NO MATTER WHAT-sound worse.

There are a lot of "it depends" when it comes to "what sounds better".

What is the crossover freq?,  what is the size of the horn?  what is the size of the woofers used?,  What is the intended area of coverage.

All of these will make a difference in terms of coverage area-freq at which combfiltering happens etc.

If the artist is more concerned about the actual sound-rather than their "ego" (some needs 2 wedges to "feel" more important), then a single wedge is going to be better.
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 12:17:45 pm »

Lead singers either don't know or don't care.....2 wedges gives you the cool factor
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David Hayes

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2015, 12:49:38 pm »

I disagree.  We use Alto TS112As for monitors.  One is fine for me, but since I put two in front of my singer I never hear any complaints about him hearing himself and I set all this stuff up and EQ it and test it myself. A pair of them definitely does not sound worse than one of them.  I put them fairly close together and this is key, they are minimally EQ'ed and not so loud that I have any feedback issues.  Ever.

As to the horns in or out question, it makes no difference.
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Brian Jojade

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2015, 12:59:13 pm »

2 wedges gives you a larger coverage area of sound. While there will be comb filtering all over the place, you will still be able to hear yourself.  The purpose of a monitor is to keep time with the rest of the band, and keep key of your voice. Comb filtering doesn't change that.  Having 2 wedges allows you to create a larger envelope of sound around the singer at a lower total volume than a single wedge.
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Brian Jojade

David Hayes

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2015, 01:12:26 pm »

2 wedges gives you a larger coverage area of sound. While there will be comb filtering all over the place, you will still be able to hear yourself.  The purpose of a monitor is to keep time with the rest of the band, and keep key of your voice. Comb filtering doesn't change that.  Having 2 wedges allows you to create a larger envelope of sound around the singer at a lower total volume than a single wedge.

With the wedges close to each other and only sending high frequency material through them, is there really any audible comb filtering?
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Scott Wagner

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2015, 01:25:44 pm »

2 wedges gives you a larger coverage area of sound. While there will be comb filtering all over the place, you will still be able to hear yourself.  The purpose of a monitor is to keep time with the rest of the band, and keep key of your voice. Comb filtering doesn't change that.  Having 2 wedges allows you to create a larger envelope of sound around the singer at a lower total volume than a single wedge.
Comb filtering WILL change the sound getting to the singer. Does that bother the singer? Probably not. Does that mean it's not a problem? Definitely not. All of those carefully "rung-out" monitor EQ frequencies will change every time the singer moves the mic. If you're dancing on the edge of stability already, this WILL send you over that edge. I'm not saying that you can't get good results with two wedges, but you will get better results with one.
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Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

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Re: Monitors, Horns in vs. Horns out
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2015, 01:25:44 pm »


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