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Author Topic: "True sub"  (Read 10015 times)

Jacob Shaw

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2015, 10:25:37 pm »

Ok

True sub: a driver that is designed to operate below the human hearing range

True horn: a horn that has a total length of more than 5ft (quoting the guy that runs speakerplans.com).

The reason that a sub is useful is because almost all modern music utilizes these frequencies below 40hz.  No you can't here these tones, but you can hear the harmonics of them, and feel them in conjunction with the harmonics.  And this is what every audiophile under 40 is addicted to.
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2015, 04:11:51 am »

Ok

True sub: a driver that is designed to operate below the human hearing range

True horn: a horn that has a total length of more than 5ft (quoting the guy that runs speakerplans.com).

The reason that a sub is useful is because almost all modern music utilizes these frequencies below 40hz.  No you can't here these tones, but you can hear the harmonics of them, and feel them in conjunction with the harmonics.  And this is what every audiophile under 40 is addicted to.
i dont have any problem hearing the 27hz note on the lowest A key on my 88 key Yamaha and all the others up and past 40hz. i can easily hear a 20hz tone with my frequency generator with any 12, 15 or 18 woofer. no such thing as a sub or true sub. i have seen 8" ,10 , and 12" woofers called subs and they roll off around 65hz and can only be made flat if you roll off and flatten the frequencies above that. i dont have subs and never will. my 18" and 15" drivers are woofers, not subs. i cross them over into the mids at 130 hz. i can vibrate a car apart. some people just dont understand. back in the 70's - 90's we never used the word sub in PA audio or Audiophile audio. it was the car audio crowd that started using the word sub. i hear good PA equipment that sounds awful because of where people cross the speakers at. try crossing the woofers and mids at 130hz. roll the top of the woofers of at 130hz and roll the bottom of the mids off at 130hz. adjust the mid/high crossover frequency point with good clean recorded music playing. thers going to be a spot where it just sounds right. then leave it alone. try it and hear for yourself. i use Ashly XR1001 and XR4001 active crossovers that are 24bd/oct L-R.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2015, 04:37:32 am »

Who cares about vibrating cars apart.  Nothing you said make sense in pro audio.  You are sitting inside the enclosure in a fixed position.  Crossing over your "subs" at 130hz is so high that they will localize  (you will be able to perceive the source of the sound).  It will also be muddy as the destructive interference will be pushed into a more critical octave.  "A spot where it just sounds right" is not quantifiable.  If you are integrating subs and tops from different vendors,  you need to measure and configure.  You also don't adjust processing during a show.  Car and home home audio practical experience has to be unlearned for production audio.  I am very leery of hiring folks from that background. 

I just looked at who posted this, you know all this...What is up?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 04:41:47 am by Scott Holtzman »
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2015, 05:28:15 am »

Who cares about vibrating cars apart.  Nothing you said make sense in pro audio.  You are sitting inside the enclosure in a fixed position.  Crossing over your "subs" at 130hz is so high that they will localize  (you will be able to perceive the source of the sound).  It will also be muddy as the destructive interference will be pushed into a more critical octave.  "A spot where it just sounds right" is not quantifiable.  If you are integrating subs and tops from different vendors,  you need to measure and configure.  You also don't adjust processing during a show.  Car and home home audio practical experience has to be unlearned for production audio.  I am very leery of hiring folks from that background. 

I just looked at who posted this, you know all this...What is up?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
you have no idea what your talking about. why dont you try it and see. btw i dont have any subs and have never owned any subs. right now i have FaitalPro 18XL1600 "woofers". i have ben a musician since 1970 and built my first PA around 1971. if you read my post you will see "why" i refered to car audio. imo you dont have any idea what you are doing. i NEVER said anything about adjusting processing during a show. you should get a larger screen so you can read the print.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 05:35:28 am by Jeff Bankston »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2015, 05:58:16 am »

I can read just fine "adjust it and leave it alone"  that implies on the fly processor adjustment.    130hz is is able to be localized and the only reason to go that high is if your tops can produce sufficient output that low.  I enjoy arguing facts I will tell you we are within 10 years of age and experience so I am comfortable too with what I bring to the table.   Make a technical argument.  I also don't know anything about your Lf boxes but I will look at the specs so I can have all the data.  To me discussing the terms is a non-starter.  It's semantics and the term sub has become ubiquitous.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Jeff Bankston

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2015, 06:54:24 am »

I can read just fine "adjust it and leave it alone"  that implies on the fly processor adjustment.    130hz is is able to be localized and the only reason to go that high is if your tops can produce sufficient output that low.  I enjoy arguing facts I will tell you we are within 10 years of age and experience so I am comfortable too with what I bring to the table.   Make a technical argument.  I also don't know anything about your Lf boxes but I will look at the specs so I can have all the data.  To me discussing the terms is a non-starter.  It's semantics and the term sub has become ubiquitous.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
This is what I do.
Woofers - FaitalPro 18XL1600
Mids - Ciare 12NDH-4
Highs - Radian 850PB and DDS CFD 2-60X Pro horns.
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duane massey

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2015, 11:27:37 am »

This is a subwoofer, circa 1977.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Jacob Shaw

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2015, 11:42:34 am »

I like 4 way configurations, so you can have your high crossover point without mudding up the subs.  Yesterday I signed a contract for an artist from LA, and the tech rider said "make sure the system is eq'ed to hit below 40hz". Although I didn't think the terminology was coherent, I know what they are looking for. 
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2015, 05:16:42 pm »

This is a subwoofer, circa 1977.
that must be located in the "sub basement". the "sub basement" is located below the regular basement and not to be confused with the "irregular basement". they use to keep me in the irregular basement but i got out.
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duane massey

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Re: "True sub"
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2015, 09:07:31 pm »

As you get older, "irregular" is not a term to be used lightly.

That is a pic of one of a pair of 20hz horns in a local club here in town.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas
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