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Author Topic: Replacing MOV surge strips  (Read 13854 times)

Steve Loewenthal

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Replacing MOV surge strips
« on: June 21, 2015, 09:06:25 PM »

I (think) I have decided to replace all of my MOV based power strips with SurgeX/ZeroSurge/Brickwall type products.
I will probably need to do this a little at a time as I find good deals on ebay etc.
I have several questions concerning this.

If there is an MOV strip plugged in anywhere else in the building, will the surgex type products protect my stuff when the MOV stuff shunts spikes to the ground/neutral?

Am I putting my equipment at risk (ie negating the benefits of the non-MOV strips) by leaving some of my MOV strips in use?

I've read that each outlet (of my current mov strips) has filters that isolate each outlet. Do I really need to care about that?
If I get several smaller surgex type products and attach a plain (no protection) power strip to each, will the surgex type product filters at least isolate the noise from 1 plain power strip to the next? (Or 1 surgex product to the next)

At most of the places we play, I run the entire system on a single 15 amp circuit. (I believe it helps avoid some ground loop problems.) I typically run the power across the back and either front or sides of the stage area with 4 to 6 power strips spread out for back line and Powered mains and monitors.
My (custom built by me) mixer table contains about 20 MOV protected outlets. These strips also have other filter type conditioners. (old analog mixer and too much outboard stuff like compressors that I don't even use)

As I do this 1 piece at a time (just like Johnny Cash and the Cadillac) are there specific MOV strips that seem like better candidates to phase out first?

As to products, does this one seem like a feasible / not too expensive product for replacing most of the drops around the stage? http://espei.com/products/esp-next-gen-pcs/
(There is 1 on ebay right now for $32)

This one also seems like a good deal: http://www.madepc.com/Surgex-Defender-Suppressor-Rack-mountable-SX-DS-L530-FP/dp/B00TGCBIM2
(I would need to change the plug or buy/make an adapter to a regular nema 5-15 plug)

Sellers: If you have some options / competitive deals in this area feel free to PM me.
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

frank kayser

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 12:46:01 AM »

I (think) I have decided to replace all of my MOV based power strips with SurgeX/ZeroSurge/Brickwall type products.
I will probably need to do this a little at a time as I find good deals on ebay etc.
I have several questions concerning this.

If there is an MOV strip plugged in anywhere else in the building, will the surgex type products protect my stuff when the MOV stuff shunts spikes to the ground/neutral?

Am I putting my equipment at risk (ie negating the benefits of the non-MOV strips) by leaving some of my MOV strips in use?

I've read that each outlet (of my current mov strips) has filters that isolate each outlet. Do I really need to care about that?
If I get several smaller surgex type products and attach a plain (no protection) power strip to each, will the surgex type product filters at least isolate the noise from 1 plain power strip to the next? (Or 1 surgex product to the next)

At most of the places we play, I run the entire system on a single 15 amp circuit. (I believe it helps avoid some ground loop problems.) I typically run the power across the back and either front or sides of the stage area with 4 to 6 power strips spread out for back line and Powered mains and monitors.
My (custom built by me) mixer table contains about 20 MOV protected outlets. These strips also have other filter type conditioners. (old analog mixer and too much outboard stuff like compressors that I don't even use)

As I do this 1 piece at a time (just like Johnny Cash and the Cadillac) are there specific MOV strips that seem like better candidates to phase out first?

As to products, does this one seem like a feasible / not too expensive product for replacing most of the drops around the stage? http://espei.com/products/esp-next-gen-pcs/
(There is 1 on ebay right now for $32)

This one also seems like a good deal: http://www.madepc.com/Surgex-Defender-Suppressor-Rack-mountable-SX-DS-L530-FP/dp/B00TGCBIM2
(I would need to change the plug or buy/make an adapter to a regular nema 5-15 plug)

Sellers: If you have some options / competitive deals in this area feel free to PM me.
Steve,

Before you buy, call SurgeX and make sure the product you're looking at will not trip an upstream GFCI device
I bought a couple last year (designated for office-use they said).
When both tripped every GFCI I could plug them into, I brought it to the attention of the SurgeX folks - the engineers said these were not designed to be plugged into a GFCI, and the tripping was normal, and to be expected with their design.

Panel ->GFCI->SurgeX->Device is NOT an acceptable connection route according to them. They DO offer SOME DEVICES where this would not be a problem. 


SurgeX would not take them back, saying nothing was defective. 


See http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,152206.msg1395849.html#msg1395849 for additional chatter.


ZeroSurge and Brickwall confirmed a GFCI was no problem for their devices.


frank
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Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 06:15:40 AM »

I'll ask but I speculate that the esp unit falls inthe office category and would trip the gfci. I've never seen gfci in the bars we play, but we do some outdoor gigs where it's available. at $32 it sounds like a good option for the home computer if not for the band
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 07:05:57 AM »

Steve, this all sounds like an exercise in spending useless money to me. For a portable PA that is plugged in for 4 hours per week, you have a pretty remote chance of dealing with a catastrophic issue like lightning or a utility issue. Everything else - the fridges turning on and off - should be easily handled by the power supplies in your gear.

Spend your money on a good receptacle tester that can test under load and that will be good enough. Surgex won't make your system less noisy, and as GFCI use increases, you will eventually have more trouble with circuits you can't use due to the GFCI incompatibility issue.

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Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 07:28:24 AM »

Steve, this all sounds like an exercise in spending useless money to me.
but this is 1 exercise I do well and on a regular basis.  :)
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

Stephen Kirby

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 08:13:37 AM »

To get rid of ground loop problems (especially in bars) build a poor man's distro.  Go through your rack of doom and make sure all the outlets are made from commercial grade duplex outlets.  None of the cheap plastic strips with integrated contacts.  They have horrible ground conductivity.  Make sure all connections are solid and low resistance.

That should absorb some time and money.  And it will make the power clean and reliable.
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George Dougherty

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 09:16:09 AM »

but this is 1 exercise I do well and on a regular basis.  :)
I'll second the poor man's distro.

If you really want to spend money on these, I just discovered Furman makes a strip version of some of their better rackmount units. 8 outlets, Isolated or non isolated ground blocks, SMP protection, filtering for about $90.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 10:12:30 AM »

Steve, this all sounds like an exercise in spending useless money to me. For a portable PA that is plugged in for 4 hours per week, you have a pretty remote chance of dealing with a catastrophic issue like lightning or a utility issue. Everything else - the fridges turning on and off - should be easily handled by the power supplies in your gear.

Spend your money on a good receptacle tester that can test under load and that will be good enough. Surgex won't make your system less noisy, and as GFCI use increases, you will eventually have more trouble with circuits you can't use due to the GFCI incompatibility issue.

Yes.

Mac
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 10:19:53 AM »

Spend your money on a good receptacle tester that can test under load and that will be good enough.
I know these are fairly expensive (around $300), but the Amprobe INSP-3 measures both the EGC ground impedance under load as well as calculating line voltage drop under 15 and 20 amp loads. You can learn a lot about a circuit in just a few seconds once you learn what the numbers indicate. http://www.amprobe.com/amprobe/usen/electrical-testers/circuit-test-and-analysis----receptacles,--breakers-and-lan/amp-insp-3.htm?pid=73252

Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 09:48:22 PM »

Thanks for all the replies so far. It's not that I have lots of ground loop or other noise problems. Those seem rare but still happen on some occasions. Usually I am quite happy with the noise floor of my system. What started this is that I will re-allocate older power strips from the band inventory to some other household duty. (Many of my belongings suffer from such promotions.) Usually the end of the life line is when the power strips are used for "seasonal" lighting. As such, I am now in a position where I do not have as many for the band as I prefer. This is when I started looking for new strips. Included in my research reading was a topic in this forum where the rep from surgex answered some questions. (Thanks Mike Sokol for setting that up) That started me down the path of convincing myself that I wanted to be MOV Free.

Based on some of the replies so far, it sounds like I should make several home made drop cords about 10 feet each using industrial grade duplex outlets. These will replace my stage power strips.

As to my Rack-O-Doom I assume this would be my mixing table with built in racks. (Maybe if I'm feeling real energetic I'll post a pic. I am proud of my work.) Right now it has a couple of JuiceGoose rack mounted strips + a couple more plastic strips. The plastic ones have wall warts and wall wart tails.

From their site: http://juicegoose.com/product-jg-jr.html
The Basic power conditioning includes a fast-acting metal oxide varistor (MOV) installed to clamp voltage spikes running between the incoming line and neutral leads. This level of conditioning also includes a capacitor to reduce the level of AC line interference that may be transmitted between the line and neutral leads

Are you suggesting that I remove all of my existing power distribution in my rack and replace with a dozen industrial grade duplex receptacles?

Thus it would eliminate any "cheap" power electronics and make for better connections.

In my home wiring I prefer wiring the receptacles by just pushing in the wire instead of using the screw terminals. Is that acceptable, or will it really be better to use the screw terminals?
(This would only be for interconnecting the outlets in the rack, not the drop cords.)

I'll definately consider the Amprobe INSP-3. I always use one of the cheap circuit indicator plugs. They may not always tell me when it is right, but I think it is reliable for the most common wrongs.

As to the Furman SMP products, I am skeptical only because it still has some MOV characteristics and does not satisfy the MOV Free mentality I had just before starting this thread.

I am guessing that if I still desire the aforementioned exercise, I can buy 1 or 2 units of surgex/etc and plug everything else into that. (1 for the stage and 1 for the foh for those times it is not on the same circuit.)

If anyone has some answers (even wild speculation is encouraged) to some of the actual questions in my first post, inquiring minds like mine still want to know.
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Replacing MOV surge strips
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 09:48:22 PM »


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