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[Craig Smith]

What did you see in the specs that "didn't seem that great"?

Various manufacturers made different versions of this technology.  It is both a "long throw and a short throw" horn in the same horn.

The far pattern was narrower and had more energy going there and the near pattern  was wider with less energy.

The basic idea was that you would get a more consistent coverage.

How does a horn design make it better for speech than for music?

Thanks for the clarification.  The main issue I saw with the specs was with the frequency response of one of the example drivers, which may or may not be the one used.  The 3db bandwidth looks to be about 1500 Hz - 3300 Hz, the 10db bandwidth about 500 Hz to 7000 Hz.

Regarding your last question I didn't exactly say that and I certainly won't attempt to discuss horns with you!  There has been plenty of discussion on that subject already, and Danley's horns are amazing.  I was simply making an inference based on some things in the data sheet and some other experiences and assumptions about installed systems of that era.

At any rate, probably best I stop talking now.  Besides, my wife says the director won't want any help.  It's just sad to see thousands of hours of rehearing essentially wasted because of a technical issue.  It's not just that the sound is bad, but you can't understand 90% of the lyrics and that's what this show is all about.  Of course, 90% of the problem is probably the operators.

[Ivan Beaver]

Thanks for the clarification.  The main issue I saw with the specs was with the frequency response of one of the example drivers, which may or may not be the one used.  The 3db bandwidth looks to be about 1500 Hz - 3300 Hz, the 10db bandwidth about 500 Hz to 7000 Hz.

Regarding your last question I didn't exactly say that and I certainly won't attempt to discuss horns with you!  There has been plenty of discussion on that subject already, and Danley's horns are amazing.  I was simply making an inference based on some things in the data sheet and some other experiences and assumptions about installed systems of that era.

At any rate, probably best I stop talking now.  Besides, my wife says the director won't want any help.  It's just sad to see thousands of hours of rehearing essentially wasted because of a technical issue.  It's not just that the sound is bad, but you can't understand 90% of the lyrics and that's what this show is all about.

When looking at the response of HF drivers not mounted on horns-most are FAR from being flat.  People often just look at the "simple numbers" which are nothing like the REAL responses.

The truly sad thing is that many people don't even realize that anything is wrong.

The first step in fixing something is realizing that it is not working properly.

At the close of Infocomm on fri, one loudspeaker manufacturer decided to "crank it up".  One of the "suits" was standing back smiling, nodding etc and he was pleased.

HOWEVER the sound was grossly distorted.  I guess all he wanted was some loud level-never mind the sound QUALITY!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess if that is all you are going for.  Loud is easy.  Sounding good-not so easy.

If you can't hear that something is wrong-maybe you need a career in video-------------

[Craig Smith]

When looking at the response of HF drivers not mounted on horns-most are FAR from being flat.  People often just look at the "simple numbers" which are nothing like the REAL responses.

The truly sad thing is that many people don't even realize that anything is wrong.

The first step in fixing something is realizing that it is not working properly.

At the close of Infocomm on fri, one loudspeaker manufacturer decided to "crank it up".  One of the "suits" was standing back smiling, nodding etc and he was pleased.

HOWEVER the sound was grossly distorted.  I guess all he wanted was some loud level-never mind the sound QUALITY!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess if that is all you are going for.  Loud is easy.  Sounding good-not so easy.

If you can't hear that something is wrong-maybe you need a career in video-------------

Quantity over quality seems to be the norm in most everything these days and it's sad.  No offense to anyone on this board but that seems to be the norm at most concerts I've been to, although I don't know if it's the system that has reach it's limit or my ears.  It's especially sad to hear that it even happens at industry events.

I know I don't have golden ears but when I first heard this show I was worried that something serious had happened to my hearing.  The speaker I use at home is (or was) used as the studio monitor for a major classical label and known for having a very flat response.  Of course, what sounds good isn't necessarily flat, and no system is perfect.  Since everyone has different ears I really wonder what other people are hearing, so I always get a few other opinions when doing an event.

[Ray Aberle]

At the close of Infocomm on fri, one loudspeaker manufacturer decided to "crank it up".  One of the "suits" was standing back smiling, nodding etc and he was pleased.

HOWEVER the sound was grossly distorted.  I guess all he wanted was some loud level-never mind the sound QUALITY!!!!!!!!!!!

I presume you are not going to tell us which company this was?!?

-Ray

[Ivan Beaver]

I presume you are not going to tell us which company this was?!?

-Ray

NO. Sorry.

[Ray Aberle]

NO. Sorry.

No need to apologise! I figured you couldn't, but hey, never hurts to ask.

-r

[Ivan Beaver]

No need to apologise! I figured you couldn't, but hey, never hurts to ask.

-r

I have been in some well controlled listening tests in which the different manufacturers are allowed some time to "do whatever they want"-but not as part of the comparative listening.

Sometimes a company will simply "crank it up" to where it is REALLY bad sounding-distorted-harsh etc.

But when all you have is LOUD, I guess you have to try to prove it.

There is a REASON nobody (serious listeners anyway) is listening to systems that are  overdriven----but some people think it is "cool".

Getting loud these days is easy-but sounding good while doing so is a lot harder.

[Bob Leonard]

Fantastic, thanks very much!  I couldn't find much on them, and of course I don't know what drivers they are using, but it seems that they might be the primary culprit of the poor sound quality and it might be time for an updated system.

The picture was taken from the midpoint of the auditorium. I thought it a bit odd how they are arrayed, but what do I know.

There was a time not long ago, maybe 50 years ago, that stadium horns were actually just one of many preferred methods for providing sound at a concert or in a ballroom. Now I said Ballroom because that's where most of the larger concerts were held at the time. Most of the rooms I worked in held 1-2K people, and no one expected to "feel the sound" at the back of the room. This was a time when 100 watt guitar amplifiers were just coming around and the art of micing every piece of hardware on the stage was just not a way of life. It was stage volume that people listened to, and plenty of it.

Horns could and often did do the job quite well, allowing the audience to hear the vocals above the band and their Marshall amplifiers, Dual Showman amps, and usually an SVT for bass. So, until the day came when columns loaded with 12" drivers became the "new" sound system I never complained. But that transition period brought on a whole new problem called "mud", a problem I overcame by using the horns and the columns together. Eventually the columns started being built with horns in them and I put mine away. Yes, those were simpler times, but the sound of a well EQ'd horn can be as much appreciated as hated. My first pair of horns? Giant Atlas horns with 30 watt drivers on steel stands, all attached to a Bogen amp.

The horns in the picture? Well to me they appear to be splayed for coverage of a fairly wide area, and don't see why they wouldn't work well without hearing them first hand.

[Doug.Jane]

OK, so thats a picture of the horns, wheres the rest of the sound system?
Is this in a school hall, gymnasium, or similar acoustically challenged building?
Is the whole cast miked up? The band? There are so many variables between good sound and bad sound, its sometimes a miracle it sounds good at all!

[Lee Buckalew]

OK, so thats a picture of the horns, wheres the rest of the sound system?
Is this in a school hall, gymnasium, or similar acoustically challenged building?
Is the whole cast miked up? The band? There are so many variables between good sound and bad sound, its sometimes a miracle it sounds good at all!

It appears that there are a pair of bass cabinets right next to the horn cluster.  This would have been quite the typical layout at the time for a vocal reinforcement cluster test could also provide some music reinforcement.
Without knowing the specific horn drivers and bass driver/cabinet combination and the crossover involved we really don't have a very good idea of the original design intention.

Lee

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