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Author Topic: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel  (Read 25118 times)

Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2016, 06:52:34 am »

One more question, the wires on the kit are color coded red & black (plus green ground) and the banana outlets on the generator it is actually sold for are also color coded...
But, my Honda's have no color code.. Guessing it matters.. May have to meter before making connections.

Anyone know?
Yes, I've discussed this with Honda and others extensively. Since the Hot and Neutral outputs of a 2KW or 3KW Honda inverter generator is floating (not bonded to the chassis), you can parallel two of them together and it doesn't matter if they're connected H-H and N-N or H-N and N-H. Now, I happen to think that's a little silly on their part, so I've always recommend to my RV readers that they mark the ends of these jumper cables with black and white tape, then connect both generators the same way. This allows you to G-N bond one of the generators with a simple Edison plug using a G-N jumper-bond, and the second generator plus the entire distro system will read correctly with a 3-light tester. Now, I'm not saying that a 3-light cube tester is the only thing you want to use to meter a receptacle. But it is a quick way to check for wire breaks in a known-correct power distribution system. 

This is one of the topics I want to delve into in our code study group since there's so much confusion about generator hookup and earth grounding.
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Mike Sokol
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Steve Alves

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2016, 09:30:38 am »

So you are saying I should create an edison with a jumper between G-N and plug that into one of the gennys when using the parallel kit?
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Steven Alves
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2016, 01:02:42 pm »

So you are saying I should create an edison with a jumper between G-N and plug that into one of the gennys when using the parallel kit?
This is one of those things that I can't get a firm answer out of Honda, and code seems fuzzy on the details. But yes, when you're running a distributed power system (power to the stage as well as a FOH mixing position) you really do want to bond the neutral to the chassis-ground. Most generators under 5KW are pretty much exempt from this requirement and have a floating neutral. But generators OVER 5KW are generally neutral-ground bonded. You can create this G-N bond by wiring inside the plug itself, or simply use a male Edison plug with a G-N jumper internally. Of course, many generators will have a simple way to G-N bond them internally, but that doesn't appear to be the case with the 2KW and 3KW Honda inverter gennys.

Note that this has nothing to do with your generator being earth-grounded, just bonded to its own chassis. Now at some point in power distro complexity you really want to connect the chassis ground of your generator to the earth ground. That's because a hot-to-chassis fault won't trip a GFCI without some sort of return path to earth on the generator side. Some will argue that a floating generator won't shock you either so don't worry about it. But I would rather know sooner than later that someone has pinched an extension cord in the metal stairs of the stage. In that case, a fully floating system won't let you know that anything is wrong. And a G-N bonded but non-earthed generator system could created a shock potential between the generator chassis or any other backline chassis and the earth. While a GFCI itself doesn't need an EGC ground wire to operate, it depends on the ground fault downstream to have a return path to generator's ground plane. And it does seem prudent that the genny ground plane and the earth potential are the same via a ground rod.

How much all of the above is a code or UL requirement is up for discussion on our Code Study thread.
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Mike Sokol
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2016, 06:57:16 pm »

This is where understanding the reason behind G-N bonding helps understand code requirements. So many people just want a simple answer without understanding- which also leads to misuse of ampacity tables, etc.

Ideally, for the use most on here use the inverters for, Honda should provide a good way to securely create a G-N bond. The problem is, for their target market, there are few advantages and some disadvantages to doing so.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2016, 08:32:10 am »

Ideally, for the use most on here use the inverters for, Honda should provide a good way to securely create a G-N bond. The problem is, for their target market, there are few advantages and some disadvantages to doing so.

From my conversations with Honda, it appears that portable generators under 5KW can eliminate the GFCI requirement as long as their neutral is floating (non-bonded). That makes perfect sense of non-distributed, single loads, such as a power tool, lighting etc... However, it's makes less sense when you're distributing AC power to multiple locations such as stage, FOH mixer, active speakers, etc... In that case I feel that the generator should be neutral bonded and earth grounded. Then all backline stage power distro should have individual GFCI protected outlets, one per musician. 

More for discussion.
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Mike Sokol
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2016, 05:57:42 pm »

For those who haven't thought through the possible scenarios, since neither conductor on the Honda is bonded, meaning you really have no neutral, I will use conductors "X" and "Y".

Say conductor X shorts to the chassis on your amp rack. With no G-N bond, nothing really happens.   Everything hums merrily along-part of the advantage of an ungrounded system.

Unfortunately, nothing indicates you have a problem so you go on this way gig after gig-until a second fault occurs.

This time conductor Y shorts to the chassis in your mixer.  Now, the shields on your xlrs connecting the mixer to your amps become your bond.  If they safely handle 20+ amps long enough to trip your breaker, a tripped breaker tells your there is a problem. If not, hopefully you realize the smell of melting insulation means you need to power down before touching anything.

Using tools or appliances that are not connected or in close proximity is relatively safe.  Once you start interconnecting stuff as musicians nad sound people do, it becomes hazardous.

While "dead" shorts are not overly common, the leakage current that causes so called nuisance gfci trips can still create voltage or potential differences that can cause noise as well as deliver a nasty shock.
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Steve Swaffer

Frank DeWitt

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2016, 10:48:51 pm »

For those who haven't thought through the possible scenarios, since neither conductor on the Honda is bonded, meaning you really have no neutral,

In the very early days of house wiring there was considerable heated discussion about grounding.  Some cities did not allow grounding and even required indicator lights in each home to light if there was a ground.  The thinking was that if there was a ground and one fault it could start a fire and you would lose the house.  The other side wanted grounds because it would be safer for people.  They won.
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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2016, 10:48:51 pm »


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