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Author Topic: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel  (Read 25032 times)

Frank DeWitt

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2015, 05:08:45 pm »

I think I am starting to understand this.  I looked up the part number for the kit (BTW there are some still out there)
http://www.alamia.us/EU3000IS_08E91_ZT7_6370C_p/hon-08e91-zt7-6370c.htm

It doesn't have any ckt breakers

I found a up to date manual for the generator
http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/pe/pdf/manuals/00X31ZT76310.pdf
It shows a 20 amp breaker for the duplex outlet, and a 30 amp breaker for the twist lock and NONE for the parallel jacks.

Therefor if Honda decided that the electronics in the inverter were not enough and added breakers to the generator then it follows that they would no longer sell a kit with no breakers.

so, you could buy a obsolete kit and add breakers, or scratch build one.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2015, 05:20:59 pm »

I think I am starting to understand this.  I looked up the part number for the kit (BTW there are some still out there)
http://www.alamia.us/EU3000IS_08E91_ZT7_6370C_p/hon-08e91-zt7-6370c.htm

It doesn't have any ckt breakers

ACK! $249?!?

That price makes my WhisperWatt look better and better every day. :)
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Guy Holt

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2015, 10:42:47 pm »

Yes,  Standard plugs.  The Banana jacks are in parallel with the AC receptacles

Standard banana Jacks are rated for only 15A. In parallel operation the jacks must carry the 23.3A continuous that the EU3000 is capable of generating.  For that reason the EU3000 uses a higher rated 25A banana jack that is only available overseas. We import ours from England.

Perhaps adding the breakers and eliminating the 50 amp kit are related.

To get close to 50A from paralleled EU3000s, requires that the load be split evenly between the two generators.  Only when each generator is carrying its maximum continuous load of  23.3A, will the combined output of the generators get close to 50A at 46.6A.  If the load is not split evenly amongst the two generators, one generator will reach its' maximum output and trip its internal electronic breaker (which is why there were no breakers on the panels) while the other can still take more load. Two generators in parallel operation will not pick up load equally (use this link- http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html#anchorParallelingEU6500s - for details) and since the paralleling kits for the EU3000s offer no means of  equalizing the load between the generators,  they never put out anything close to 50A, which is why the 50A kits were discontinued. We are able to provide 120A from paralleled EU6500s and EU7000s because we have designed into our paralleling control box a trim knob that enables the user to evenly distribute the load over the two generators. 

Guy Holt, Gaffer
ScreenLight & Grip
www.screenlightandgrip.com
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2015, 01:37:24 pm »

and since the paralleling kits for the EU3000s offer no means of  equalizing the load between the generators,  they never put out anything close to 50A, which is why the 50A kits were discontinued. We are able to provide 120A from paralleled EU6500s and EU7000s because we have designed into our paralleling control box a trim knob that enables the user to evenly distribute the load over the two generators. 

Guy Holt, Gaffer
ScreenLight & Grip
www.screenlightandgrip.com

So if paralleling EU3000is gennys into a common bus is complicated because of the balancing issues, what about considering them as two legs of 120-volts which are not phase-locked together. Now before everyone starts yelling at me about hot male plugs (sounds like a good name for a band) notice on the diagram below I'm using each EU3000is to feed one leg of the Cali-50 or L14-50 receptacle. We have zero 240-volt equipment, and no double-pole breakers in our distro breaker boxes. If we balance our loads manually (FOH amps on one genny, and backline plus LED lights on the other leg) nothing will care that the L1 to L2 voltage will slowly drift between 0 and 240 volts.

Also note that I tied the neutrals and grounds together from the two gennys (going to happen no matter what) and added a Neutral-Ground bonding switch. Just add a ground stake and this could be used with existing Cali-50 or NEMA 14-50 distro cables.

What do you all think? I know this is a bit strange but I don't see any reason why it won't work and be completely safe. I'm pretty sure code doesn't address this sort of thing, but I don't see why they would exclude it either as long as everything was properly marked.

And yes, getting a bigger genny (WhisperWatt or EU7000) would solve the problem, but I'm looking for a simple/cheap way to combine my EU3000is with my buddy's EU3000is for when we do shows a little too big for a single EU3000is. And we would like to use existing Cali-50 or L14-50 distro.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 02:01:39 pm by Mike Sokol »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2015, 02:16:52 pm »

So if paralleling EU3000is gennys into a common bus is complicated because of the balancing issues, what about considering them as two legs of 120-volts which are not phase-locked together. Now before everyone starts yelling at me about hot male plugs (sounds like a good name for a band) notice on the diagram below I'm using each EU3000is to feed one leg of the Cali-50 or L14-50 receptacle. We have zero 240-volt equipment, and no double-pole breakers in our distro breaker boxes. If we balance our loads manually (FOH amps on one genny, and backline plus LED lights on the other leg) nothing will care that the L1 to L2 voltage will slowly drift between 0 and 240 volts.

Also note that I tied the neutrals and grounds together from the two gennys (going to happen no matter what) and added a Neutral-Ground bonding switch. Just add a ground stake and this could be used with existing Cali-50 or NEMA 14-50 distro cables.

What do you all think? I know this is a bit strange but I don't see any reason why it won't work and be completely safe. I'm pretty sure code doesn't address this sort of thing, but I don't see why they would exclude it either as long as everything was properly marked.

And yes, getting a bigger genny (WhisperWatt or EU7000) would solve the problem, but I'm looking for a simple/cheap way to combine my EU3000is with my buddy's EU3000is for when we do shows a little too big for a single EU3000is. And we would like to use existing Cali-50 or L14-50 distro.
I agree with Steve - what's the benefit of tying the neutrals together vs. two separate generators with a common ground?  You're not going to get 240v power with this setup, and I can't see any advantage compared to just bonding the generators together.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2015, 02:28:13 pm »

I agree with Steve - what's the benefit of tying the neutrals together vs. two separate generators with a common ground?  You're not going to get 240v power with this setup, and I can't see any advantage compared to just bonding the generators together.

The only advantage is being able to use our existing Cali-50 and NEMA 14-50 feeder. And remember, if the generator frames are bonded to a common ground rod, and each generator's Neutral is bonded to its own frame ground, then the neutrals are tied together anyways. 
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2015, 02:31:05 pm »

The only advantage is being able to use our existing Cali-50 and NEMA 14-50 feeder. And remember, if the generator frames are bonded to a common ground rod, and each generator's Neutral is bonded to its own frame ground, then the neutrals are tied together anyways.
For such a small setup, I think I would prefer running a pair of regular extension cords rather than your big #4 feeder.

Also, Honda EU generators are unbonded by default, unless you do it externally.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2015, 02:46:04 pm »

For such a small setup, I think I would prefer running a pair of regular extension cords rather than your big #4 feeder.

Also, Honda EU generators are unbonded by default, unless you do it externally.

I'll probably just make up a pair of 50ft/10ga extension cords with the EU3000 twist-lock plugs and break it out to Edison 20-amp quad boxes on stage. And I would bond their chassis to a common ground rod as I previously indicated.

And I always neutral-ground bond any generator I'm using for stage power, as well as earth grounding it). That can be done on an EU3000is simply with an Edison G-N bonding plug. Before I plug anything in I'll use an Amprobe INSP-3 or Ideal SureTest Analyzer to confirm voltage and frequency. Then I run a quick check on all stage distro outlets with a 3-light tester for obvious ground/polarity issues (found one with an open neutral last week) as well as a hot-chassis test on backline amps by using a NCVT. Doesn't take very long to do and it lets me plug in new gear with confidence that I'm not going to blow anything up. Oh yes, I inspect any stage amps for grounds and don't let the musicians use their own extension cords, if possible.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2015, 03:37:14 pm »

The only advantage is being able to use our existing Cali-50 and NEMA 14-50 feeder. And remember, if the generator frames are bonded to a common ground rod, and each generator's Neutral is bonded to its own frame ground, then the neutrals are tied together anyways.

And, you could use the distro and associated cabling. In my case, my 50a distros have some circuits as Powercon.


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Mike Sokol

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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2015, 03:59:06 pm »

And, you could use the distro and associated cabling. In my case, my 50a distros have some circuits as Powercon.

I'm finding that a lot of our gigs use WAY less power than the old days. LED lighting is great compared to tungsten, and modern back-line and FOH/Monitor amps draw a lot less power than the stuff I started with 40 years ago. Of course, there's going to be EDM and Rap music gigs that will tax any power system to the max. But I just did a festival gig with a bluegrass band followed by a 3-piece folk-acoustic act that needed a lot of peak power for clarity, but the average power required was really low. For the heavy duty bands a big genny is in order. But for a lot of these acoustic/world acts we're doing I think that a single EU3000is may be all that's needed. But we shall see...

Also, I have a lot of political connections and think that this next presidential election cycle is going to have a bunch of burrito parking-lot gigs with limited crowds. So I need a basic stage and sound system that's quick to deploy and a generator that's quiet and easy to transport. Maybe a single EU3000is is all that will be required for this sort of gig. 
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Mike Sokol
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Re: Honda EU3000iS gennys in parallel
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2015, 03:59:06 pm »


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