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[Scott Holtzman]

I'm far from even being considered a pro sr guy, but a pro wouldn't Mcgyver what he had available?

No gates, no comps, not a pro. Just a guy coming to a forum looking to see what others would say. I've never claimed to anyone,  be it here or to customers that I was a pro sr guy. Customer asked me if I could provide abc and I said yes. Everything I promised is covered and then some. Been tinkering with my new toys since they cane in and thought "hey, wonder if I could do xyz?"

I never said their souund guy has pos gear patched together. Shr/he could do an excellent job in providing sr work. If he showed up drunk, not dressed well, hittin on guests, etc etc etc..in my book he would have done a crappy job.

If you are accepting money that makes you a professional.  Just like putting "pro" on a product does not increase the quality.

It is indeed true that a good sound guy can make a turd sing if he has to. 

To me gates/comps are not exotic or high end gear.  Really good comp/gates are available in the secondary market (quad units usually) for $50.00.  For $120 you can cover drums and vocals.  Having those mics open all the time makes your life (and noise floor) more difficult.

[Joseph Ugalino]

If you are accepting money that makes you a professional.  Just like putting "pro" on a product does not increase the quality.

It is indeed true that a good sound guy can make a turd sing if he has to. 

To me gates/comps are not exotic or high end gear.  Really good comp/gates are available in the secondary market (quad units usually) for $50.00.  For $120 you can cover drums and vocals.  Having those mics open all the time makes your life (and noise floor) more difficult.

I learned something from this post, gates/comps in your opinion should be standard and I'll look into that. I'm open to learning, in my other thread, an eq for my mains was recommended, I bought one.

I must say though that your other post really irked me. Mocking me for "putting together a PoS  fixed config effect". You can call me a pro for providing gear, and I'll take that, but I'm not a pro sr guy. If I ask questions that may seem stupid to you I apologize, actually I take that back. I don't apologize because I don't know better and I like I said, I came to learn.

Just a reminder, effects is not in my contract, neither is gates/compressors or whatever else a pro sr guy may want. I'm not even required to mix for the band.

But like I said, I came to learn. You've bought up gates/compressors more than once so believe me when I say I'll look into that because I don't even know what those are for.

[Ray Aberle]

Joseph,

Scott was more concerned about the process of trying to patch that baby mixer inline to your setup, to utilize its (probably poor quality) effects engine. That's the "MacGyvering" that a professional would not do, regardless of the circumstances.

More importantly: Please do not EVER feel stupid for asking questions. (Although if you ask something that is easily found by using the "Search" function on the forums here, you may get some flack for that.) Everyone started somewhere. The "Old Guys" will talk about "Tuition In The Ye Olde School Of Hard Knocks" -- they set something up, ran it til something broke, and then learned from that. The expense of replacing gear was that tuition. The key, though, is to learn from it-- if you break the same thing, again, from the same action, then you're not learning.

Nowadays, the internetz makes it a LOT easier to learn about professional sound! But, experience helps a lot as well. Set up your rig, try something, and if it doesn't do what you expect, tweak it. Learn what minute knob changes will do to the sound. Learn (be hearing) what each frequency on your EQ sounds like.

In short... Compressors: Keeps the dynamic range of the signal closer together ("compresses it") so your end volume is not wildly out of control. If a singer is performing quietly one minute, then suddenly yelling, instead of riding the fader as closely as you might have to, having a compressor on their channel will keep that peak from being massively louder then the rest of their performance.

Gates: Keeps a channel (mic) closed until it reaches a certain level (the "threshold"). As the input increases with the intended signal, the channel suddenly comes alive (the gate opens). This has the advantage of generally staying close from background noise, wind, etc, that would adversely affect your overall mix. As Scott mentioned, having some available on a drum kit is nice, because then your drum mics aren't contributing noise to the rig.

-Ray

[Scott Wagner]

In short... Compressors: Keeps the dynamic range of the signal closer together ("compresses it") so your end volume is not wildly out of control. If a singer is performing quietly one minute, then suddenly yelling, instead of riding the fader as closely as you might have to, having a compressor on their channel will keep that peak from being massively louder then the rest of their performance.

There is a down-side to compression. Compression raises the average (think RMS) levels. If you're running near the ragged-edge, your speakers won't have time to cool between the loud parts. If the lightbulb over your head hasn't lit yet, that means you can damage your speakers. When running heavy compression, keep the levels in check.

Gates: Keeps a channel (mic) closed until it reaches a certain level (the "threshold"). As the input increases with the intended signal, the channel suddenly comes alive (the gate opens). This has the advantage of generally staying close from background noise, wind, etc, that would adversely affect your overall mix. As Scott mentioned, having some available on a drum kit is nice, because then your drum mics aren't contributing noise to the rig.

Gates are tricky to get "right". With the threshold set too high, the gates won't open for the quiet bits. With the threshold set too low, they never close. My advice is conservative use of gating (ie: set the threshold to close the gates in between songs, and open as soon as the song starts). As you gain experience, you may start setting gate thresholds higher for an effect. Also, the noise reduction thing is only relevant when the gates are closed.

[John L Nobile]

If I didn't have gates or comps I'd slash my wrists.

Kidding. They're great tools to have but have to be used properly to be effective. They're not that hard to use and there is tons of online tutorials. Just don't overuse them.

Maybe you should be looking into a digital board. All the eq's/gate/comps/efx are built in and save you a lot of setup time and money.

[Ray Aberle]

Scott, I understand the use of compression and gates; I was attempting to give Joseph a fairly simple introduction to them both.

[Stephen Kirby]

To me the main point is the the OP is a DJ with decent mains.  ETX, QRX and the like.  He has a serviceable but older Yamaha MG24 board.  It's heavy in his book and has a couple of dead channels but is otherwise okay.  He took on an SR gig with a requirement for 4 monitor mixes.  Which the MG will do.  But to avoid using that piece he went out and bought a Behringer mixer that doesn't have 4 pre-fader sends.  Then on advice from somewhere, he went and spent more money for two (now three) Behringer eqs.  Probably (based on his initial post) out of concern for monitor feedback and with an eye toward the "feedback frequency indicators" on the Behringer eqs.

Now he has made two realizations:  he will have to mix two of the monitor sends post fader (not sure he completely realizes how difficult that will be) and that with all the sends on the Behringer board used up, there no way to patch in any FX.  So now we are on to the MacGuyver lash up.  (Which we've all probably done at some point in our youth even if with modern equipment and knowledge from the net it isn't necessary any longer)

None of this stuff he bought is up to the level of his speakers.  This sounding like a one off gig, I'm not sure why he bought all this entry level gear.  Probably why he bought such cheap stuff.  Without realizing how much it will compromise the sound quality.  The best bet probably would have been to rent for this one gig either a digital mixer (maybe for a few day so he could learn it) or a good analog board with good outboard eqs and maybe a bit of dynamics processing if he was comfortable learning to use it properly.  Or, as I suggested, use his old board and trade in the Behringer stuff for a few good used eqs.

[Scott Wagner]

Scott, I understand the use of compression and gates; I was attempting to give Joseph a fairly simple introduction to them both.

... and I was just expanding on your concepts for the OP. I quoted you in the OP's best interest. He's new to all of this.

[Joseph Ugalino]

To me the main point is the the OP is a DJ with decent mains.  ETX, QRX and the like.  He has a serviceable but older Yamaha MG24 board.  It's heavy in his book and has a couple of dead channels but is otherwise okay.  He took on an SR gig with a requirement for 4 monitor mixes.  Which the MG will do.  But to avoid using that piece he went out and bought a Behringer mixer that doesn't have 4 pre-fader sends.  Then on advice from somewhere, he went and spent more money for two (now three) Behringer eqs.  Probably (based on his initial post) out of concern for monitor feedback and with an eye toward the "feedback frequency indicators" on the Behringer eqs.

Now he has made two realizations:  he will have to mix two of the monitor sends post fader (not sure he completely realizes how difficult that will be) and that with all the sends on the Behringer board used up, there no way to patch in any FX.  So now we are on to the MacGuyver lash up.  (Which we've all probably done at some point in our youth even if with modern equipment and knowledge from the net it isn't necessary any longer)

None of this stuff he bought is up to the level of his speakers.  This sounding like a one off gig, I'm not sure why he bought all this entry level gear.  Probably why he bought such cheap stuff.  Without realizing how much it will compromise the sound quality.  The best bet probably would have been to rent for this one gig either a digital mixer (maybe for a few day so he could learn it) or a good analog board with good outboard eqs and maybe a bit of dynamics processing if he was comfortable learning to use it properly.  Or, as I suggested, use his old board and trade in the Behringer stuff for a few good used eqs.

Its like you looked into a crystal ball and saw everything. You are good.

Ok, no mcgyvering effects. Got it.

Yup, reason for the fbq's is the indicators. I've used them twice at gigs, notched out a frequency or two during sound check. No feedback during the gig, but I never really had feedback problems in the past without it

Regarding mixing monitors post fader. In the past when I've done sr work, I usually ask each member if he/she wants more highs/lows and I adjust with the channel eq and that happens when they first start. Through out the night I rarely have to adjust the channel eq. the thing I usually get get requests for is to make them louder, which I can do with the aux send.  Like I mentioned if I need to adjust them for the mains I'll have each on their own group. Am I not seeing something that I should?

Maybe my ears aren't that good, but I haven't really noticed a drop in sound quality since I've added the behringer gear, or maybe I don't want to   When I first got the behringer mixer I hooked it up to my roland ba 330 and there was a loud hiss, I was thinking behringer sucks, only to find I had the roland on mic level lol.

I bought behringer because yes its cheap, and I prefer not to rent. Even if I sell them at half of what I paid, I still come out ahead with the extra I charged for the gig. At first I wasn't even thinking of buying any gear, I was going to go with what I had. I have the mg and for backup I have my other smaller yamahas as well. But then my brain started to think, do I really want to bring that big thing out?  One thing led to another and now I have a behringer mixer and 3 eq's. In over 20 years of DJ work I've never owned any behringer

I do have a gig coming up this weekend, monitors not in contract but I'll be bringing everything because there is only so much one can do testing gear at home.

Comoressor sounds really intersting on what I've read. A lot of times people make their own slideshow with audio and they plug into our gear. Sometimes their audio is off the charts, normal one song, loud the next.

[Scott Holtzman]

Its like you looked into a crystal ball and saw everything. You are good.

Ok, no mcgyvering effects. Got it.

Yup, reason for the fbq's is the indicators. I've used them twice at gigs, notched out a frequency or two during sound check. No feedback during the gig, but I never really had feedback problems in the past without it

Regarding mixing monitors post fader. In the past when I've done sr work, I usually ask each member if he/she wants more highs/lows and I adjust with the channel eq and that happens when they first start. Through out the night I rarely have to adjust the channel eq. the thing I usually get get requests for is to make them louder, which I can do with the aux send.  Like I mentioned if I need to adjust them for the mains I'll have each on their own group. Am I not seeing something that I should?

Maybe my ears aren't that good, but I haven't really noticed a drop in sound quality since I've added the behringer gear, or maybe I don't want to   When I first got the behringer mixer I hooked it up to my roland ba 330 and there was a loud hiss, I was thinking behringer sucks, only to find I had the roland on mic level lol.

I bought behringer because yes its cheap, and I prefer not to rent. Even if I sell them at half of what I paid, I still come out ahead with the extra I charged for the gig. At first I wasn't even thinking of buying any gear, I was going to go with what I had. I have the mg and for backup I have my other smaller yamahas as well. But then my brain started to think, do I really want to bring that big thing out?  One thing led to another and now I have a behringer mixer and 3 eq's. In over 20 years of DJ work I've never owned any behringer

I do have a gig coming up this weekend, monitors not in contract but I'll be bringing everything because there is only so much one can do testing gear at home.

Comoressor sounds really intersting on what I've read. A lot of times people make their own slideshow with audio and they plug into our gear. Sometimes their audio is off the charts, normal one song, loud the next.

Yeah I am not sure why you took major umbrage to my statement, nothing was personal.

None of us ever stop learning, not if we are any good at whatever we do, that's a given.

The reason I was short was not your lack of knowledge or experience, nor was I down on your desire to learn.  What irked me, and may have been reflected in my writing is imposing yourself on the audience and band before you have the experience.  I don't think it's right to learn at your customers expense since clearly you are charging good money.  You also have a rider, a rarity at this level.

Back to the advice part, you are falling victim to the "polishing a turd" syndrome.  Don't go out and buy gates and comps or any outboard gear for a mixer with dead channels that is so heavy (I missed that part of the original post).

Start researching and learning about your digital options.  Don't toss good money after bad.  If you are going to supply audio services to live acts some venues can be much better served by the remote control of a digital board (mixing on a tablet) and scores of effect and processing are built in.  You will also be working on current marketable skills, not how to hack older gear together. 

I certainly apologize if my attitude offended you, that wasn't the intent.

[ProSoundWeb Community]