ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Where do I place my eq's  (Read 8911 times)

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2015, 12:23:09 pm »

I run my main eq as an insert.  It simplifies the gain staging.
Logged

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6866
  • Audio Plumber
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2015, 12:39:30 pm »

So I picked up a 3rd fbq3102 for my mains. When I wire this in, is it okay to use the "insert" on the mixer for the mains? Or should I go from XLR main out of mixer -> to the in of fbq3102, then out of fbq3102 -> to in of my mains?

Either way is OK on the mains since you can hear the speakers and are aware of what the changes are. Where inserts have the advantage is with monitors, where you can't actually hear the changes the eq is making at FOH unless you use inserts so the changes are reflected in the AFL.

Mac
Logged

Mike Karseboom

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 250
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2015, 02:04:34 pm »

Joseph - props to you for thinking ahead and trying to head off problems before they start.  Good on you for having backups also.  It sounds like you have done more DJ stuff and maybe not worked with live bands quite as much, so I offer this info from my limited experience in similar situations.


Looking at that video and the pictures of the venue it does not look that bad.  It is big enough that you really should not have a problem with feedback from the mains.  The glass and other hard surfaces are no doubt creating a very reverberant space though and vocal intelligibility and possibly low-mid buildup might be a problem that your mains eq could help with.  Every situation is different of course but often some substantial cuts around 200-250Hz help with mud in the room. You just have to try it and  not be afraid to play around a little. 


Also if you are using subs in a really live room use them on an aux and see if you can get away with limiting the total sub output.  Often a reggae bassist will carry the room with his amp whether you want him too or not!   The video shows a common, but not necessarily  optimum, mains speaker positioning.  To maximize your vocal intelligibility in a case like this I would try to get the speakers up much higher on the poles and aim them down and in right at the front of the crowd using tilters. Heck 10' high and 15 degrees down and 30 degrees in might at least give you great clarity for the for the first half of the room.  Sometimes that would be considered a significant achievement.   


You can also use your channel EQ to make cuts at 2-3kHz for guitar, snare, and anything else that might be crowding that key vocal range. Since it is reggae you might be providing a nice fat delay but in a room like that I would not  add any reverb until you are absolutely sure it makes an improvement.


Any feedback problems you have will almost surely come from the monitors.  The stage is a little "cave like" and the ceiling is hard.  But the drapes help deaden it and it even looks carpeted.  It can't be that bad unless the band's stage volume is out of control.  SM58's are usually pretty good with rejecting feedback if you keep the monitors in the null. 


Trying to fix feedback problems with EQ can be tough and it is much easier to try and create a situation that is less prone to feedback in the first place.  To try and preempt feedback problems I would take these steps:


- get away with as few open mics as you can.  Indoors you typically don't need full drum mic'ing.  Just use a kick mic, set up a snare and OH and then don't use them if you don't have to . That is, test them in sound check but then turn them way down or leave them off until you determine you absolutely need them.  DI the bass if that is an option. I f a guitarist offers you a DI option, take it.


- thoughtfully position the monitors with respect to the mics.  For example if you have a drum monitor get it up at the drummer's head level on some sort of stand rather than on the floor and try to point it slightly back and away from the rest of the stage. 


- Use your channel strips to cut 80Hz or higher from every mic you can.  On a drum OH possibly cut all the way up to 250Hz.  On your monitor EQ's consider rolling off below 85Hz or so and if low mids are a problem possibly some dips around the 250Hz mark.


-  You can try ringing out the monitors without the band on stage but don't go too crazy with cuts.  If you have sever problems and are making more than one or two cuts at this point go back to the previous steps.


- That is most of what you can do by yourself.  Next it is up to the band to work with you.  Part of that is having the confidence to help them make good choices.  For example, don't put anything in the monitors unless specifically asked for.  Then, if they say "just put a little of everything in all the monitors", diplomatically avoid doing that.  Things like Kick  should only be needed by the drummer and bassist even though others may request it.  bring up FOH to full volume so they hear some wash from the mains and maybe they will get what they need from that.


- After you have tried to eliminate as much gak as possible from getting into the in the monitors in the first place, the band can still defeat you if they have a crazy loud stage volume.  All it takes is a super loud drummer or a guitarist or bassist that won't turn down to make it so the vocalists can't hear themselves.  Again you have to be diplomatic but have confidence to suggest lower volumes from those instruments.  Tell them " hey we don't even have the guitar in the mains at this point and I already can't get the vocals above that without causing ear bleeds" or  "your fans really want to hear great your great sound and right now there is so much volume coming off the stage its louder than the mains".  Of course some bands will work with you and some won't.


With a room that big, and a stage like that, and with the decent gear you are using, I think feedback problems will be mostly self inflicted.  If you have problems try to get at the root of the problem and save your eq's for a last resort and fine tuning.
Logged
--Mike
"If you're not confused, you don't know what is going on"

Live Sound for the Mt. Shasta area
http://www.shastalivesound.com

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2015, 02:27:49 pm »

Just looked at that video since Mike had some suggestions about dealing with the venue.  Wow, Halawa, takes me back.  I lived in Salt Lake just before moving to the mainland although my dad still lives on the windward side.  I moved to town when I worked at Easy Music in the '70s.  Where I lashed up plenty of MacGuyver PAs for various shows the store promoted.

Live room, dead stage, leads to two problems.  As Mike said, pointing your tops at the core of the audience and away from the walls and ceiling will help.  The other thing is that with that drapery around the stage.  Often, HF damping on a stage makes it sound dead.  I used to play in the Tiki Broiler in the International Marketplace in the late '70s and they had padding and heavy drapes all around the stage.  You could pound the snot out of the drums and it still didn't sound like you were doing much.  Stage volume didn't sound like much to the band.  But in the room it could be really loud.  Nowadays some people are more used to letting the PA handle things and play quieter on stage.  But if they start wanting to get down, the temptation to crank up on stage will be strong.

As Mike mentioned, your worse enemy will probably be mid bass build up.  Besides the 100Hz cut, you are probably going to need to cut around 300Hz on lots of the channel strips just to keep the roar down.  Hopefully you have better musicians who will play more quietly and make it work.
Logged

Joseph Ugalino

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2015, 10:21:21 pm »


When you say "roll offf" below 85 on monitor eq, does that mean something special? Does that mean just bring the fader all the way down on everything 85 and below? Or start at 85 and go lower with each lower frequency?
Logged

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2015, 11:06:02 pm »

The attempt here will be to "roll off" frequencies that your cabinets won't reproduce to begin with. Vocals won't usually need reinforcement below 80hz, and I feel certain none of the cabinets you're going to use have that type of range either. Eliminating signal below 80-90hz will also eliminate sound from other sources that may tend to be picked up and would otherwise "muddy" the monitor mix.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2015, 11:57:52 pm »

In addition, more low end playing back at the stage adds to the mud that the musicians hear.  Often making it harder for them to hear things the many folks will turn up to compensate making the problem worse.
Logged

Joseph Ugalino

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2015, 08:36:15 pm »

Thanks for the help eveyrone, gig was last night. It went ok, reminded me of why I don't do more SR work.

Stage was hot! Not very big, we usually set up dj rig in less than 30min, took almost 2 hours! Break down is usually less than 20 minutes, took 45 after I had even started breaking down monitors/mics and hour earlier.

Contract was 4 separate mixes so we originally had it set up so that each vocal could here their own mic. The main lead vocal asked if the wedges were separate mixes, i said yes. He told us what he wanted and we gave it to him, he wanted piano and his vocals on all wedges with no bassist. Then he had us adjust his highs and lows then he said "make everyones the same". What we did was make all the highs and lows the same for everyone. Then when the performance started, the other vocals said they needed more gain, we kept giving it to them and I was thinking wtf? We were set up behind one of the vocals and I could here him really loud. I could tell they were really irritated and kept raising their gains to the point of feedback. Then one of the vocals said "I cant here myself on their side (wedges). After we put all vocals on all wedges they didnt ask for anything. Either they got what they oringially wanted, or they were tired of asking.

You wanna know where I'm putting my eq's and all the other gear I bought for this gig? Craigslist, I dont want to work that hard anymore


Logged

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2015, 11:44:34 pm »

Sounds like an amateur band that doesn't know what they want.  I remember doing a wooden music festival (Kalapana/Country Comfort type stuff) at Windward CC back in the Easy Music days.  Bunch of living room groups that weren't used to playing out but thought they knew what the big time was.  Kept asking for more of themselves in the monitors and then when they could hear themselves, they'd back off the mic.  It was a constant struggle to turn them down so they'd get on the mic and people could hear them in the mains only to get the more me sign, give them a bit, try to get them back up in the main mix when they backed off the mic, rinse and repeat all day long.

Sometimes it is hard.  But you learn.  And you learn tricks to get you through.  And then you get with pros who know how to mix themselves and it's a breeze.  Which gives you a better idea what to do with the next garage band.  It's all about getting the music to the audience.  A band that knows how to play, you just help them with reinforcement of what they are already doing.  Those less optimum gigs, you learn to mix.
Logged

Joseph Ugalino

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2015, 04:04:19 pm »

I'm sure glad nobody cares about my spelling lol.

I think the band knew what they wanted, it was what was on the rider that screwed things up.

I'm guessing their manager created the rider and not the band members. When it came down to it, they didnt need 4 wedges with 4 separate mixes, they just needed 4 wedges. Which makes me even more disgusted because I could have gotten by with just one eq, and i also didnt need to run independant speaker wires to each wedge, could have left the other rack in the van....... So much work that wasnt needed.

Well at least I got paid, could have saved the customer some money had I known what was really needed
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 04:06:22 pm by Joseph Ugalino »
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Where do I place my eq's
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2015, 04:04:19 pm »


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.055 seconds with 23 queries.