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Author Topic: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.  (Read 5176 times)

Kyle Gerhart

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Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« on: June 01, 2015, 01:36:57 pm »

So I am forced to use Cerwin Vega subs and mains for a few gigs this summer  >:(

The current rig has four of the Cerwin Vega AB-36C's, which are highpassed at 35Hz and low passed at 85hz. The Boss is thinking about buying more subs, but is considering buying the TS-42's which is a 21" sub. The new subs would have their own amps and be powered correctly.

The question i have is "will I need to process the 21" subs diffrently, then the 18's that are in the current rig? Or can I send the same signal to both types without any major issues."
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 05:40:59 pm »

So I am forced to use Cerwin Vega subs and mains for a few gigs this summer  >:(

The current rig has four of the Cerwin Vega AB-36C's, which are highpassed at 35Hz and low passed at 85hz. The Boss is thinking about buying more subs, but is considering buying the TS-42's which is a 21" sub. The new subs would have their own amps and be powered correctly.

The question i have is "will I need to process the 21" subs diffrently, then the 18's that are in the current rig? Or can I send the same signal to both types without any major issues."
The answer is "it depends"

It depends on the path length differences.

If you use different low and high pass freq, then that will be different amounts of phase shift.

Yes you will very possibly have some "issues".  How big of an issue, really depends on what is acceptable to you.

Without more detailed information-it is hard to make a guess of how big of an issue it might be.

THe best thing would be to rent or borrow a couple of the subs you are looking at and try them with your rig and see for yourself if there is an issue.

Who knows- you might "get lucky" and all the differences end up working together-or not.

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chuck clark

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 12:21:53 am »

Hi Kyle, "leave it to Beaver" to put his finger precisely on the 2 things most likely to cause issues. Lol! Aside from the "42's "being louder, lower & stronger, as Ivan said, path length differences to the driver and phase shift from different crossover/ processor settings can cause slight differences in arrival times of the sound wave coming out of these boxes. Because it has a longer horn the sound wave will arrive a tiny bit later at the front of the box in the TS 42.  How much later? Not much. The difference of about 16 inches means the delay is only about 1.2 thousandths of a second. That's close enough that it may well be additive at the long bass wavelengths these boxes operate at.
 So generally I would avoid different cross over points to avoid issues there. Maybe adjust them down slightly to 30 hz hi pass and 80 hz lo pass. Then, since the slight delay will tend to "steer" the energy towards the bigger box, the ideal configuration would be to center stack the "36's" in the middle and the stack the"42's" on the outside, to slightly soften the effects of the power alley.  I'm wondering what top boxes you will use? While they make some very nice sounding boxes that punch above their weight, I don't know of any top boxes made by CV that are designed go loud enough to do anything more than a few hundred people. Good luck, have fun experimenting!
Chuck
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Kyle Gerhart

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 07:48:17 am »

Hi Kyle, "leave it to Beaver" to put his finger precisely on the 2 things most likely to cause issues. Lol! Aside from the "42's "being louder, lower & stronger, as Ivan said, path length differences to the driver and phase shift from different crossover/ processor settings can cause slight differences in arrival times of the sound wave coming out of these boxes. Because it has a longer horn the sound wave will arrive a tiny bit later at the front of the box in the TS 42.  How much later? Not much. The difference of about 16 inches means the delay is only about 1.2 thousandths of a second. That's close enough that it may well be additive at the long bass wavelengths these boxes operate at.
 So generally I would avoid different cross over points to avoid issues there. Maybe adjust them down slightly to 30 hz hi pass and 80 hz lo pass. Then, since the slight delay will tend to "steer" the energy towards the bigger box, the ideal configuration would be to center stack the "36's" in the middle and the stack the"42's" on the outside, to slightly soften the effects of the power alley.  I'm wondering what top boxes you will use? While they make some very nice sounding boxes that punch above their weight, I don't know of any top boxes made by CV that are designed go loud enough to do anything more than a few hundred people. Good luck, have fun experimenting!
Chuck


The Front of the stage is 24' wide. Two TS42's would be side by side, with the three main boxes stacked on top of them. The mains are the CVP2153's, with the horns rotated for a total coverage of (120H x 60V). The main stacks would be at the far L&R of the stage. The remaining four AB36c subs would be lined up across the stage, centered every 6'. They would have the front fills sitting on top of them.

My processor is 2in:6out, so I have enough outputs to process the 42's diffrently from the 36c's. As well as the front fills. I would love to have a diffrent processor, so i could do a L&R, FF, SUB set up. But its what I have to work with for this particular gig.


So this would be my proposed processor config

In 1- Left
In 2- Right

Out 1- Main left, HPF 24LR@70hz
Out 2- Main Right, HPF 24LR@70hz
Out 3- Sub 42's (LR sum), HPF 24LR@30hz, LPF 70hz
Out 4- Sub 36c's (LR sum), HPF 24LR@30hz, LPF 70hz
Out 5- Front fils (LR sum0, HPH 24LR@70HZ

The stage is used for smaller outdoor gigs (300-600 people).

Mains-10,800 watts, (120H x 60V)
Subs- 15,600 watts
Front fills- 3,200 watts (50H x50V)





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chuck clark

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 06:15:55 am »


The Front of the stage is 24' wide. Two TS42's would be side by side, with the three main boxes stacked on top of them. The mains are the CVP2153's, with the horns rotated for a total coverage of (120H x 60V). The main stacks would be at the far L&R of the stage. The remaining four AB36c subs would be lined up across the stage, centered every 6'. They would have the front fills sitting on top of them.

My processor is 2in:6out, so I have enough outputs to process the 42's diffrently from the 36c's. As well as the front fills. I would love to have a diffrent processor, so i could do a L&R, FF, SUB set up. But its what I have to work with for this particular gig.


So this would be my proposed processor config

In 1- Left
In 2- Right

Out 1- Main left, HPF 24LR@70hz
Out 2- Main Right, HPF 24LR@70hz
Out 3- Sub 42's (LR sum), HPF 24LR@30hz, LPF 70hz
Out 4- Sub 36c's (LR sum), HPF 24LR@30hz, LPF 70hz
Out 5- Front fils (LR sum0, HPH 24LR@70HZ

The stage is used for smaller outdoor gigs (300-600 people).

Mains-10,800 watts, (120H x 60V)
Subs- 15,600 watts
Front fills- 3,200 watts (50H x50V)

That should do nicely.  Let us kmow how it goes!
Chuck
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Ara Ayrassian

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 11:07:36 pm »

So I am forced to use Cerwin Vega subs and mains for a few gigs this summer  >:(

The current rig has four of the Cerwin Vega AB-36C's, which are highpassed at 35Hz and low passed at 85hz. The Boss is thinking about buying more subs, but is considering buying the TS-42's which is a 21" sub. The new subs would have their own amps and be powered correctly.

The question i have is "will I need to process the 21" subs diffrently, then the 18's that are in the current rig? Or can I send the same signal to both types without any major issues."
I would look at 4 Yorkville LS1208's less money much better sub
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Kyle Gerhart

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 07:01:02 am »

I would look at 4 Yorkville LS1208's less money much better sub

There are quite a few makes and models of subs that I would rather have. Unfortunatly its not up to me and the stage is being sponsored by Vega. So i have the choice between the AB-36c 18" folded horn sub, or the TS-42 21" folded horn subs. Its most certainly not ideal, but its what i have to play with on this gig.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 07:40:15 am »

There are quite a few makes and models of subs that I would rather have. Unfortunatly its not up to me and the stage is being sponsored by Vega. So i have the choice between the AB-36c 18" folded horn sub, or the TS-42 21" folded horn subs. Its most certainly not ideal, but its what i have to play with on this gig.
Since the stage is being sponsored by them, why not call them up and ASK THEM what the best setup is, what adjustments/settings are needed and so forth.

It is in THEIR best interest to make it sound as good as possible.

You would hope they would know what is best for their products.

Just my .02 worth
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 10:14:31 am »

Since the stage is being sponsored by them, why not call them up and ASK THEM what the best setup is, what adjustments/settings are needed and so forth.

It is in THEIR best interest to make it sound as good as possible.

You would hope they would know what is best for their products.

Just my .02 worth

This. Right. Here.
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Re: Mixing 21" and 18" folded horn subs.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 10:14:31 am »


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