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[Bill McIntosh]

So, I do sound and oh yeah, lights too, for a local cover band.

Female lead singer, lead guitar, 2nd guitar + keyboards, bass, drums; 5 piece.  Current lighting is all LED: 2 x 4 fixture par 56 front lights, 2 LED par56 uplight stand warmers, 1 40" bar in back, 1 Chauvet mini-strip with laser in back, 2 LED strobes upstage SR and SL.  Control is a Chauvet Obey 70 (which I want to replace with something better.)

Lead guitarist got giddy over some cheap moving head LED fixtures, and has ordered 3.  Sanvn brand, under $100 each, single 15 watt lamp, gobos included.  They are not here yet, but I did find a manual of sorts online (photocopy PDF of a printed one  ).

So I have a couple of questions:

1 - Can anyone point me to a resource so I can learn some effective lighting techniques?  We have been playing dive bars under 200 capacity, trying to move upmarket some.  I want to get a more professional look beyond dazzling drunks with blinky lights.   

2 - The units our guy ordered have a 23 degree beam angle which seems pretty wide.  Similar Blizzard and ADJ fixtures spec 8 and 13 degree respectively.  I think that means I won't be able to project a usable light over any distance.

Thanks, still a NOOB light lights but trying to learn something.

[Jamin Lynch]

So, I do sound and oh yeah, lights too, for a local cover band.

Female lead singer, lead guitar, 2nd guitar + keyboards, bass, drums; 5 piece.  Current lighting is all LED: 2 x 4 fixture par 56 front lights, 2 LED par56 uplight stand warmers, 1 40" bar in back, 1 Chauvet mini-strip with laser in back, 2 LED strobes upstage SR and SL.  Control is a Chauvet Obey 70 (which I want to replace with something better.)

Lead guitarist got giddy over some cheap moving head LED fixtures, and has ordered 3.  Sanvn brand, under $100 each, single 15 watt lamp, gobos included.  They are not here yet, but I did find a manual of sorts online (photocopy PDF of a printed one  ).

So I have a couple of questions:

1 - Can anyone point me to a resource so I can learn some effective lighting techniques?  We have been playing dive bars under 200 capacity, trying to move upmarket some.  I want to get a more professional look beyond dazzling drunks with blinky lights.   

2 - The units our guy ordered have a 23 degree beam angle which seems pretty wide.  Similar Blizzard and ADJ fixtures spec 8 and 13 degree respectively.  I think that means I won't be able to project a usable light over any distance.

Thanks, still a NOOB light lights but trying to learn something.

Set up various scenes for your show. Make a major change in lights with a major change in the song. Like going from a verse to the chorus. Go from one dominate color and location to another and leave them alone until the song changes.

I see too many lighting guys who have the movers going and the fixed lights blinking the entire show. Gets old. Might be OK for DJ's but not for bands. IMO

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

So, I do sound and oh yeah, lights too, for a local cover band.

Female lead singer, lead guitar, 2nd guitar + keyboards, bass, drums; 5 piece.  Current lighting is all LED: 2 x 4 fixture par 56 front lights, 2 LED par56 uplight stand warmers, 1 40" bar in back, 1 Chauvet mini-strip with laser in back, 2 LED strobes upstage SR and SL.  Control is a Chauvet Obey 70 (which I want to replace with something better.)

Lead guitarist got giddy over some cheap moving head LED fixtures, and has ordered 3.  Sanvn brand, under $100 each, single 15 watt lamp, gobos included.  They are not here yet, but I did find a manual of sorts online (photocopy PDF of a printed one  ).

So I have a couple of questions:

1 - Can anyone point me to a resource so I can learn some effective lighting techniques?  We have been playing dive bars under 200 capacity, trying to move upmarket some.  I want to get a more professional look beyond dazzling drunks with blinky lights.   

2 - The units our guy ordered have a 23 degree beam angle which seems pretty wide.  Similar Blizzard and ADJ fixtures spec 8 and 13 degree respectively.  I think that means I won't be able to project a usable light over any distance.

Thanks, still a NOOB light lights but trying to learn something.

Bill, with respect, those aren't movers of any consequence; they're Mag Lites on a bobble head.  They're not going to be bright enough to do anything meaningful for illuminating the band or the room.  I would point them at the dance floor and roll through colors and gobos, keeping in mind Jamin's good advice of knowing when to use them and when to turn them off.

For your other question about beam angle - it depends on what you want to do.  "Beam" fixtures - fixtures designed to project a visible beam in haze, tend to be very narrow, and some are 0° - just a column of light the width of the lens.  "Wash" fixtures tend to have wider beams, because you want them to light up a thing.  The right beam angle for this relates to your throw distance from the light to your target, and how much brightness you have to use.  Most PARs are around 20°.  For washing, this is pretty narrow if you are throwing from a short distance.  For a typical situation with T-bar trees close to the band, 40° is probably a lot more useful.

[Mike Pyle]

Lead guitarist got giddy over some cheap moving head LED fixtures

If they are RGB you can have a different color for each chord he plays.

[Bill McIntosh]

Bill, with respect, those aren't movers of any consequence; they're Mag Lites on a bobble head. 

LOL that's is probably all the respect they deserve.

So, the beam width is an 'in-between' angle.  I will play with them for a while after they arrive, see what they will do (and won't do).  I am also concerned that the pan & tilt motors may not be durable or fast.

Jamin -- guilty as charged, I have been throwing all sorts of random color changes, except for a few songs where I have tried to match light to sound (slow dance numbers mostly).  We have a Friday/Saturday gig this weekend so I will have a little more time to do setup.

[Jamin Lynch]

LOL that's is probably all the respect they deserve.

So, the beam width is an 'in-between' angle.  I will play with them for a while after they arrive, see what they will do (and won't do).  I am also concerned that the pan & tilt motors may not be durable or fast.

Jamin -- guilty as charged, I have been throwing all sorts of random color changes, except for a few songs where I have tried to match light to sound (slow dance numbers mostly).  We have a Friday/Saturday gig this weekend so I will have a little more time to do setup.

What really drives me crazy (crazier) is when the light guy sets up a chase and just lets it run the whole night. Even between songs the movers are still going and the blinky lights are still blinking.

Lights are supposed to enhance the show...not BE the show.

You don't want to give away your whole light show scenes half way through the first song.

IMO

[John L Nobile]

As long as we're on things that drive you crazy, it really bothers me when the LD designs great flashy light scenes but leaves the performers looking like shit. There's only a few guys I've worked with that understand that you have to make the performers look their best in every part of the stage and then move on to the back/intelligent lighting.

[Caleb Dueck]

You don't want to give away your whole light show ... half way through the first song.

Great point.

[Jeff Lelko]

Bill, as far as what to use for lighting inspiration I'd suggest watching a few other concerts/acts and note their lighting - see what kinds of effects/scenes/looks they use and build off of what you like!  Of course rigs and capabilities will vary, but I find that to be a nice way to get the creative process started when I or my customer don't have anything specific in mind.  What kind of controller are you using, and will you be relinquishing light duties to someone else or will you be doing this yourself along with sound? 

Not to get off topic or anything, but please post back when you get these and let me/us know your thoughts.  I've been considering adding some 10w RGBW LED movers to my own system for 'eye candy' effects, so let me know if you think the output of yours is pass-able or not.  I'm looking into more of the 2 degree beams, but I'd be curious to hear some feedback first.

[Tim Weaver]

Waste of money.

[Paul G. OBrien]

Usefull LED moving heads start at about 60w IMO.. notice I didn't say "high quality" or "durable" moving heads because you are still getting a plastic clad and relatively cheaply made product at this $500 a piece level, but that will get you enough output to produce patterns and colors that can be seen even without fog or haze. As for making them useful... the #1 problem with moving heads is that if they are left to run their built-in programming the beams will spend 90% of the time pointing everywhere but on the band or dance floor, so using a controller is manditory and you will want a controller with some moving head specific controls built-in, otherwise you will spend a rediculous amount of time trying to program scenes that looks half decent. Controller upgrade options will include the Elation Show Designer series of course but I'd also include the new Blizzard ProKontrol MH in there as a less expensive option, this controller has some very good moving head specific features with built-in movement macros and the ability to customize or limit head movement and to save those macros in scenes.

[Bill McIntosh]

Waste of money.

"Maglight on a booblehead"  just as Mr. Cornish predicted.

He only bought one so far, I hope to talk him out of buying any more.  (Mfg. Suggested Retail is $225, he is finding e-bay used unit at ~$100.  Still junk at $10.)

He ran it on auto this weekend, the light was so dim he may as well have not plugged it in.  Staight up from the floor to a 12 foot ceiling the beam was about 3 foot across, gobos were fuzzy, and barely noticable unless I took everything else to blackout.  I also noticed a lot of jerkiness in the tilt/pan operations.

It seems that moving heads are like speakers: 2 goods ones are a lot better than 4 or 6 crappy ones.

The real kicker is I am not sure what he wants to accomplish that we are not already doing with the fixed lights.

I AM in the market for a better controller (currently an Obey 70.)  I would like to address each light (possible but tedious) and also run multiple chases simultaneously (not possible now).

Bill, as far as what to use for lighting inspiration I'd suggest watching a few other concerts/acts and note their lighting - see what kinds of effects/scenes/looks they use and build off of what you like!  Of course rigs and capabilities will vary, but I find that to be a nice way to get the creative process started when I or my customer don't have anything specific in mind.  What kind of controller are you using, and will you be relinquishing light duties to someone else or will you be doing this yourself along with sound? 

Not to get off topic or anything, but please post back when you get these and let me/us know your thoughts.  I've been considering adding some 10w RGBW LED movers to my own system for 'eye candy' effects, so let me know if you think the output of yours is pass-able or not.  I'm looking into more of the 2 degree beams, but I'd be curious to hear some feedback first.

Thanks Jeff, I will try looking up some recordings of small bands.  The big boys may not scale down to my level (bar band, mostly <150 cap venues) but I can see what *can* be done with skill and a budget.

Comparing this mover to a scanning moonflower from MCM ( http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/PULSE-QUADRA-MOON-/555-19905 ); the moonflower has some simple programs and sprays a lots of colored dots around the dance floor.  Easy, simple, and a lot cheaper. 

The narrow beam may give you some usable lighting for specific effects; the Sanvn one we have is essentially useless for a band.  Might work for a party light at home for pre-teens.

[Tim Weaver]

The best controller is a laptop running Chamsys MagicQ. There's a learning curve, but you will never run into a "my console can't do that" situation.

You can find a number of 250 watt lamp movers and scanners for fairly cheap. Right now the value leader is the Technobeam.

Fairly bright, has all the features of a pro unit, and can be had around 400 bucks on the used market.

You will need to learn how to maintain such a beast though.

[Bill McIntosh]

The best controller is a laptop running Chamsys MagicQ. There's a learning curve, but you will never run into a "my console can't do that" situation.

You can find a number of 250 watt lamp movers and scanners for fairly cheap. Right now the value leader is the Technobeam.

Fairly bright, has all the features of a pro unit, and can be had around 400 bucks on the used market.

You will need to learn how to maintain such a beast though.

Thanks Tim, I will check out the MagicQ software. Any suggestions on a USB=>DMX interface in the sub $200 range?  I don't foresee needing more than 1 universe.

The Technobeams are too heavy and require too much current for our situation, even though they look pretty potent.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Thanks Tim, I will check out the MagicQ software. Any suggestions on a USB=>DMX interface in the sub $200 range?  I don't foresee needing more than 1 universe.

The Technobeams are too heavy and require too much current for our situation, even though they look pretty potent.

Bill, Chamsys sells a $100 USB -> DMX dongle that does all you need.  Or, for $15, you can get into their basic dongle that time limits the software to 5 hours per session (close/reopen to restart the timer)

https://secure.chamsys.co.uk/magicdmx

[Nate Armstrong]

if you change your mind, I have technobeams (16) for $250 each 

[Rob Spence]

if you change your mind, I have technobeams (16) for $250 each

Hey Nate, where are you located (Tapatalk doesn't display it)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[duane massey]

Personally I was not impressed with the Chamsys software as a stand-alone option. I could see where it would be far better with their control surface (which the factory guy I talked with also agreed with), but the club that had it installed removed it after three months and installed a used Showdesigner 2, which is still in use 2 years later.
A Showdesigner 1 would be avast improvement over your current unit IF you take the time to think about your set up and program as many scenes as possible for your songlist (but you should do this with any real controller anyway).
Doesn't make much difference how cool/bright your lights are, or how many you have, if you can't actually control them to make the band and show stand out. I'm constantly amazed at how many acts that do carry lights with them get such a lackluster show after all their efforts simply because they have not invested in a decent ($700) controller and spent the time setting up some appropriate cues.

[Bill McIntosh]

Personally I was not impressed with the Chamsys software as a stand-alone option. I could see where it would be far better with their control surface (which the factory guy I talked with also agreed with), but the club that had it installed removed it after three months and installed a used Showdesigner 2, which is still in use 2 years later.
A Showdesigner 1 would be avast improvement over your current unit IF you take the time to think about your set up and program as many scenes as possible for your songlist (but you should do this with any real controller anyway).
Doesn't make much difference how cool/bright your lights are, or how many you have, if you can't actually control them to make the band and show stand out. I'm constantly amazed at how many acts that do carry lights with them get such a lackluster show after all their efforts simply because they have not invested in a decent ($700) controller and spent the time setting up some appropriate cues.

+1

We are focused (pardon the pun) on lighting as a differentiator.  Problem has been, none of us knew anything about the tech or art of lighting. 

I have learned a little, and the main thing is getting a coherent show instead of just blinky lights. 

We are going to hold off on moving heads at least until we can get some good ones.  In the meantime I will doing a lot of programming.  At least I can test them full strength in the garage and no one complains about the noise.

I have downloaded the Chamsys (PC version) and poked a bit, reading the manual.  Wow.
 

[Josh Daws]

if you are after a little more user friendly software based solution take a peek at martin MPC. you can use the enttec dongle, for 1 universe. but totally is an amazing software, backed by a great online support, and forum community.

[Rick Powell]

+1

We are focused (pardon the pun) on lighting as a differentiator.  Problem has been, none of us knew anything about the tech or art of lighting. 

I have learned a little, and the main thing is getting a coherent show instead of just blinky lights. 

We are going to hold off on moving heads at least until we can get some good ones.  In the meantime I will doing a lot of programming.  At least I can test them full strength in the garage and no one complains about the noise.

I have downloaded the Chamsys (PC version) and poked a bit, reading the manual.  Wow.
 

We had the Chamsys and the dongle for a while and it was too deep for us to figure out with the time we wanted to spend; I agree that, if we had spent time to master it, it would have been able to do many complex and effective things.  Instead I found an original Elation Show Designer for $150 off of ebay.  We also bought some generic Chinese moving lights (50w) for about $250 each off of Alibaba and they are effective at our level.  We usually have them just do a move and a color change for each scene...we do a few chases where they are moving more, or rotating the gobo.  Where LED could improve IMHO is with a cost effective 50 or 75 watt watt static spot that changes colors...this is the essence of rock show lighting along with flood lighting to cover the stage.  These days, to get an effective LED spot, you need to buy a 50 or 90 watt mover, whether you really need it to move or not. 

[duane massey]

There are quite a few RGBW or RGBWA fixtures on the market that would work for stationary spots. You just have to look for the ones with a narrow beam, but they are getting brighter and cheaper. The MegaLite Baby Color is pretty impressive for it's price point.

[Rob Gow]

There are quite a few RGBW or RGBWA fixtures on the market that would work for stationary spots. You just have to look for the ones with a narrow beam, but they are getting brighter and cheaper. The MegaLite Baby Color is pretty impressive for it's price point.

I'm by no means a light guy, but I'm getting better. I use DMXIS to program my lights. For movers I picked up 4 used Martin Minimac Profiles, they run around $450 each used. My wash lights are Blizzard 3NX, and I have some moving pinssots on the top. They are the Chauvet Intimidator Spot Duo's. $600ish each, but you do get 2 moving heads with each fixture.

The nice thing about DMXIS is the use of Oscillators for use when programming. It helps set movement and can be used for pan & tilt on moving heads, on dimmers, colours etc. On any channel. Using these, you set up scenes. Instead of say your obey 70 where you do:

Moving head up
Moving head down
Moving head up
Moving head down

And running through that as a 4 scene chase, you would use the oscillator, set your limits and speed and then that head will move up and down during that scene all night until you choose another scene.

Here's some examples: again, I'm no Lampie so if there are obvious technical faults its out of complete ignorance.

11 3NX on a truss (I use 11 so there's a middle light for different colours)

This is running through the scenes fairly quickly.

http://youtu.be/3Hlfh-1lxEA

Now adding a hazer and the 4 Martin Minimac Profiles

http://youtu.be/t3imH3s32RQ

And then adding the 4 Intimidator Spot Duos on the top

http://youtu.be/whrMkJ6gRvQ

So you can see how the different beam angles play nicely together and give you some contrasts.

Beam angle:
3NX: 25° field angle 29° 27W
Minimac: 17° 150W bulb
Spot duos: 6° 10W LED


http://youtu.be/t3imH3s32RQ

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