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[Ivan Beaver]

I agree that I'd rather have a cabinet that has plenty of headroom, but I think I like the 90x60 pattern better than the 80x80 pattern. Also price will end up being a factor. How many TH118s would you say it would take to keep up with a pair of SM96s? That should give me an idea of how much quieter the SM96 is than the SM80. Pretty much no matter which I end up going with will be much better and louder than what I have now and have used in the past.

You ALSO have to consider that the rated patterns of ALL loudspeakers DOES NOT mean that they actually have that pattern across their entire freq range.

And even then the actual pattern changes with freq-some more than others.

In many cases the pattern is only for 2, maybe 3 octaves.  It takes LARGE horns (something that most cabinets are missing) to be able to control freq down below even 1Khz.

But most don't want to discuss that

But let's assume the pattern is "correct".

A 90 wide pattern is only 5 degrees wider on each side.  Is that enough to "make or break" the gig?  Especially for EDM?  I doubt it.

When people say "it takes x amount of subs to "keep up" with a particular box-"that is only a wild rough idea of a guess.

It comes down to how much louder the subs are running than top box.

Is it 15dB? or say 21dB?  The difference is TWICE the amount of subs.

So 2 subs vs 3 subs is around a 3dB difference.

And when you start factoring in things like "exactly what does the power handling really mean" and understand that it is simply a shaped test signal that may not have anything to do with your particular music, then it starts to get even more complicated.

Your music may put more or less strain on the cabinet than the test signal. 

If you were doing what many would consider "quality music", then the Sm96 could be a better choice (assuming it would go loud enough for the size audience you are trying to cover).

But for most "overall" live and party type events, the SM80 would be my choice.

For what it is worth the SM80 is a tad less expensive than the Sm96, but not enough to make one choose the other over price.  About a 3% difference-retail.  But I do not discuss specific prices-not my job.

The SM80 sits better on a pole also.

[Ivan Beaver]

No offense, but AFAIK dB is dB.

The term dB has absolutely NO value.

All it is is a RATIO between 2 know values.  dB could be used to describe distance-voltage-power-pressure etc.

Since it is a ratio-that is the beautiful thing about it, a 6dB increase in voltage is the same as a 6dB increase in power.  So double the voltage = 4 times the power.

In SPL you are comparing a measured value against the "reference value" of 0dB and it simply tells you how much louder your signal is than 0.

0 does NOT mean no sound.  In fact you can have negative SPL numbers if the sound is quieter than the reference

[Alex Berry]

It is simply the "PRESSURE" of the air that is being "compressed".

In a small closed environment (such as a car) it is not that hard to get high SPL numbers.  Heck all you have to do is compress the roof a bit and get SPL numbers.

Now what it feels like and what it sounds like, can be very different things.

Such as with a butt shaker.  You kinda get the "sense" that there is a lot of bass (buy your body telling you it is shaking) but the actual SPL is much lower.

Agreed totally. Although in a car environment, they almost always demo their systems with a bunch of windows open to let the system "breathe". Not necessarily to help cool the drivers, but it allows for a decent SPL gain and lower extension. And it provides for more of a loud experience than a pressurized experience. I've also heard enough systems at 150db or above that I have a pretty good grasp of how loud it is.

You ALSO have to consider that the rated patterns of ALL loudspeakers DOES NOT mean that they actually have that pattern across their entire freq range.

Yes but Danley is better at this than most, as far as I'm aware.

But let's assume the pattern is "correct".

A 90 wide pattern is only 5 degrees wider on each side.  Is that enough to "make or break" the gig?  Especially for EDM?  I doubt it.

Absolutely not, I'm more interested in the 60 degrees of vertical dispersion in the SM96 vs the 80 degrees in the SM80. Although how much of a difference this will make practically, I'm not sure.

When people say "it takes x amount of subs to "keep up" with a particular box-"that is only a wild rough idea of a guess.

You've said before that you like 2-3 TH118s per SM80 for a loud rock show, and that you ran 2 BC218's with 2 SM80s and that a single BC218 is about equivalent to 4 TH118s. I know it's not this simple, but I'm only looking for a rough estimate. Given this sub to top ratio with the SM80, lets transfer whatever that ratio is over to the SM96. Then, using that ratio, how many TH118s would it take to "keep up" with an SM96?

If you were doing what many would consider "quality music", then the Sm96 could be a better choice (assuming it would go loud enough for the size audience you are trying to cover).

But for most "overall" live and party type events, the SM80 would be my choice.

Lets make this real simple. I was able to cover my target venue at around my target SPL at about 1/3 capacity of the venue with two EV ETX-35P's with ZLX-12P's for front fills (we're leaving subs out of this example). The front fills are basically not important because they weren't placed high enough to cover more than the very front row or two. I've measured the 35P on music to average around 118dbA in a very light limit. You can, however, push the 35P heavier into limit without any problems. I did do this for the event of which the pair was able to cover well, so lets say I gained an extra 2db from pushing it further into limit. This gives me around a measured 120dbA on music (yes I know the specific music is a huge variable but lets not worry about that right now, we're only dealing with rough estimates here). Roughly and practically, how much louder is the SM96 than the EV ETX-35P? If it is in real world situations actually able to produce 124db continuous, then it will be a good cabinet for me. Although, with it being around the same price as an SM80, the SM80 might be a better route.

The term dB has absolutely NO value.

All it is is a RATIO between 2 know values.  dB could be used to describe distance-voltage-power-pressure etc.

Since it is a ratio-that is the beautiful thing about it, a 6dB increase in voltage is the same as a 6dB increase in power.  So double the voltage = 4 times the power.

In SPL you are comparing a measured value against the "reference value" of 0dB and it simply tells you how much louder your signal is than 0.

0 does NOT mean no sound.  In fact you can have negative SPL numbers if the sound is quieter than the reference

I know, I should have stated db SPL, but I assumed Doug knew I was talking about db SPL without me needing to specify it.

[Lee Buckalew]

...lower extension.

You have mentioned in earlier posts of this thread the idea of getting lower frequency extension by adding subs.  There are a few different posts here if you search that show that this really does not hold to be true.  If you want response to a certain frequency get subs that can do it, don't rely on adding more subs to gain additional frequency response.

Lee

[Alex Berry]

You have mentioned in earlier posts of this thread the idea of getting lower frequency extension by adding subs.  There are a few different posts here if you search that show that this really does not hold to be true.  If you want response to a certain frequency get subs that can do it, don't rely on adding more subs to gain additional frequency response.

Lee

Oh no, I'm not relying on adding subs to provide lower extension. I was simply wondering whether or not adding subs did lower the overall capable frequency response of the system due to subs that are further apart only coupling at lower frequencies. If realistically this isn't true, then whatever, it's not a concern. If, however, it is true then that's awesome and welcomed. Either way, I'm just curious.

[Ivan Beaver]

Absolutely not, I'm more interested in the 60 degrees of vertical dispersion in the SM96 vs the 80 degrees in the SM80. Although how much of a difference this will make practically, I'm not sure.

You've said before that you like 2-3 TH118s per SM80 for a loud rock show, and that you ran 2 BC218's with 2 SM80s and that a single BC218 is about equivalent to 4 TH118s. I know it's not this simple, but I'm only looking for a rough estimate. Given this sub to top ratio with the SM80, lets transfer whatever that ratio is over to the SM96. Then, using that ratio, how many TH118s would it take to "keep up" with an SM96?

 Roughly and practically, how much louder is the SM96 than the EV ETX-35P? If it is in real world situations actually able to produce 124db continuous, then it will be a good cabinet for me. Although, with it being around the same price as an SM80, the SM80 might be a better route.

As usual there is A LOT more than "simple numbers" will tell you.

The SM80 will have pattern control to a lower freq than the SM96 in the  60 degree coverage.

This is for 2 reasons.  First the horn on the SM80 is larger.

Second since the pattern is wider on the Sm80-for a given size horn the wider pattern will have control down lower-it will naturally control lower.

So while you are getting 60 degrees in the mid and high freq-it starts to get wider as you go lower, while the Sm80 is still controlling the pattern.

There is no "magic number" for subs to tops.

You really have to look at each situation.  In the particular situation that we used the BC218s-the main reason we used them was due to pattern control/rear rejection on the back side.

There was a neighborhood behind the speaker position (the reason we placed the speakers where we did), and we wanted the most rear rejection.

Also we wanted deeper extension since it was an EDM event.

Plus they were available-so why not

And they may not be "overkill" for a rock band.

As far as moving them around-we had a lot of college guys who were very egar to help-so I did not have to touch a thing.

How many TH118s to SM96?  There is no simple answer-  The real answer lies in how much louder the subs are run-and different people like different amounts of bass.  So I would say the answer is somewhere between 1 and 4 subs to each SM96-depending-----------

For a standard rock band that was not to loud-1 or 2.

But I would not choose the SM96 for a rock band in a club.

Regarding the "continuous" output RATING and the  REAL WORLD-very often they are different.

I know people want them to be the same-but the simple reason is that the test signal is not the same.

The standard test signal has a crest factor of 6dB.  Standard music (even pretty compressed) has a crest factor of 10-15dB.

So if you use the peak rating of the loudspeaker-you can easily see that the "real music continuous" is going to be 4-10dB lower.

I use -10dB as a "standard guess-ta-mate" to get realistic levels that could be expected to the listener during show time.

The EV will have a good bit more bass than the the SM80-no question.

It is hard to make comparisons without real data-but the SM80 has a horn loaded 12" mid-and the SM96 is a 5", as compared to a 6.5" (which is also horn loaded) on the EV.  I have no way to compare the quality of the drivers-other than size.

I don't know if the 1.25" HF driver is exit size or voice coil size.  The SM80 has a 3" voice coil and the SM96 has a 1.5" diaphragm.  Again no other way to compare except size.

I won't make any other comments about performance specs on the EV box. and how they relate to each other.  I leave that to others to figure out.

[David Morison]

Oh no, I'm not relying on adding subs to provide lower extension. I was simply wondering whether or not adding subs did lower the overall capable frequency response of the system due to subs that are further apart only coupling at lower frequencies. If realistically this isn't true, then whatever, it's not a concern. If, however, it is true then that's awesome and welcomed. Either way, I'm just curious.

It won't change the actual ability of each box to produce more level at the bottom end of it's response, no, but if they couple less well at the upper end of their range, then subjectively you might think they sound deeper due to there being less upper bass present.
HTH,
David.

[Alex Berry]

As usual there is A LOT more than "simple numbers" will tell you.

The SM80 will have pattern control to a lower freq than the SM96 in the  60 degree coverage.

This is for 2 reasons.  First the horn on the SM80 is larger.

Second since the pattern is wider on the Sm80-for a given size horn the wider pattern will have control down lower-it will naturally control lower.

So while you are getting 60 degrees in the mid and high freq-it starts to get wider as you go lower, while the Sm80 is still controlling the pattern.

This is a fantastic point, and will be a big deciding factor for me.

There is no "magic number" for subs to tops.

You really have to look at each situation.  In the particular situation that we used the BC218s-the main reason we used them was due to pattern control/rear rejection on the back side.

There was a neighborhood behind the speaker position (the reason we placed the speakers where we did), and we wanted the most rear rejection.

Makes a lot of sense, but I was referring to them more in terms of their output and not how directional they are.

Also we wanted deeper extension since it was an EDM event.

Plus they were available-so why not

+1 this!

For a standard rock band that was not to loud-1 or 2.

But I would not choose the SM96 for a rock band in a club.

Ok, thanks! This is more of what I was looking for.

So if you use the peak rating of the loudspeaker-you can easily see that the "real music continuous" is going to be 4-10dB lower.

I use -10dB as a "standard guess-ta-mate" to get realistic levels that could be expected to the listener during show time.

This is also helpful, thanks.

The EV will have a good bit more bass than the the SM80-no question.

It is hard to make comparisons without real data-but the SM80 has a horn loaded 12" mid-and the SM96 is a 5", as compared to a 6.5" (which is also horn loaded) on the EV.  I have no way to compare the quality of the drivers-other than size.

I don't know if the 1.25" HF driver is exit size or voice coil size.  The SM80 has a 3" voice coil and the SM96 has a 1.5" diaphragm.  Again no other way to compare except size.

I won't make any other comments about performance specs on the EV box. and how they relate to each other.  I leave that to others to figure out.

I ran the EV's crossed at 100hz, so bass wasn't a concern of mine from the EV's. At that gig I actually ran them with 8 Soundbridge 7218SWX subs powered by Powersoft K10 amps. I was only running about 125 watts into each sub, and was getting around a 135-140 10-20 feet away from the subs.

I can say the 35P's are some of the cleanest, best sounding speakers I've ever heard. I can only compare them in SQ to d&b J series boxes. The HF driver in the 35P is a DH-3B, and the DH-3 is a 1.25" diaphragm, so I think the DH-3B is as well. Unfortunately EV hasn't posted anything about the DH-3B.

Basically, I'm now more interested in the SM80 anyways. If it can do more than a 120dbA at 1m continuous on music, it'll beat out the 35P. For the price it better!

[Jacob Shaw]

I would like to comment on the debate about the front loaded subs be horn loaded subs and latency.  It is my understanding that any time Sound waves of the same frequency are coming from two different locations and they begin to occupy the same space they are either going to "sum" or they are going to "cancel".  Of course there is a hypothetical scenario where it is exactly 90 degrees out of phase and it does neither, but that has about the same chances of happening as a pubic hair being exactly .5 mm thick (it is more likely to be .49855531753mm thick or some other astronomical decimal).  "Sum" = <90 degrees out of phase= an increase in spl.  "Cancellation"= >90 degrees and <170 degrees out of phase= a decrease in spl. 
     That being said, if you have front loaded reflex subs and mains with front loaded mid drivers ground stacked with the fronts lined up crossed over at say 100hz they WILL "sum" at the bandwidth that they are producing in common.  I don't believe to be a situation where "it depends",  they will sum, period.  Summing is better than canceling because if you have cancellation and you need more 100hz you won't get it no matter how much you boost that band.  If the drivers are at least "summing" then you can at least correct the response with eq.  This is why you see a lot of powered subs with a 180 degree phase switch, if you find that you have cancellation you can flip this switch and although you won't be perfectly in phase it will at least get you "summing".  Of course if you have the time and resources to get you system in phase as much as possible this is ideal and will minimize the amount of eq nessicary (important if you are Eqing with a driverack with limited bands of eq).

[Jacob Shaw]

I will say that the Martins are sweet.  I went to u-street hall to here them and was thoroughly impressed.  As reflex boxes go I would say that they are one of the most environmentally friendly options as the drivers get loud as hell with only 500w.

[ProSoundWeb Community]