ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 11   Go Down

Author Topic: Choosing the best sub for me  (Read 19362 times)

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8767
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2015, 09:29:05 pm »


I agree, but nobody was really understanding my concerns and I was totally uneducated to the fact. I am now educated, and we can move on!  ;D
I am not trying to be mean by my next comment.

You are NOT educated.  You have simple been exposed to a little (a very little bit) of what is really going on.

It gets a lot more complicated-even doing the basic alignments.

For example-in almost no case is the same crossover freq used for the subs and the tops.

Electrically this may make sense-but not ACOUSTICALLY. And THAT is what is important-NOT the electrical response.

When was the last time you saw a sub or a full range cabinet that had a flat response around your crossover freq?

Not in the pro world I assure you.

And do you run your subs as the same level as your mains?  If not (most subs are run hotter) then the acoustical crossover is VERY different that the electrical.

And when you are talking about "phase response"-what seat are you talking about?  With the mains in the air and the subs on the ground-as you move around  you will need different delays for different seats.

So there is no "perfect" alignment.  Only a perfect alignment at ONE (or maybe a couple)  seat-but not all.

Understanding what you CAN and (more importantly) CANNOT fix is VERY important.

I'm glad you are learning-but this is just the tip of the iceberg.

NEVER STOP LEARNING!!!!!!!!!!!
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1310
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2015, 11:02:31 pm »

Thanks for the info! I'll definitely consider the H3T+. Have you heard the box? If so, do you have any impressions you could give me about it? I was looking into the WS218X specifically to compliment the H3. Probably something like 4 to start. With those duals being louder than the average dual, I think it would make for a good system.

I have not heard the H3 series of Blackline, I have used some of the Blackline series.  They would not be my first choice for live sound but for EDM they may do well. 

i do not know if they will sell them separately but for the cost of 4 WS218X and amplifiers and processing (depending on what amps and processing you are considering) you might be able to get DSX (or a smaller quantity of MSX) instead.  Self-powered, built in DSP.  That may be an option to consider.

I still would recommend hearing for yourself various options and seeing how they sound for what you need.  How they fit physically into your transport needs, look at what power is required for the various amplifier requirements, the pros and cons of each.  You can't get that from the brochures or spec sheets.

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Lyle Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2015, 01:02:14 am »

If you buy a powered system from a single vendor product line the alignment may be taken care of for you.

I went with etx18sp subs under etx tops because it was a simple setup with internal alignment and internal self protection.  Plug it together, hand it over to someone who will try and drive it too hard, and know that at the end of the show it won't be broken.

My passive rig was a techo's amusement ride.  Lets of fun knobs and settings, but it needed adult supervision.

The same inbuilt protection and alignment is available from most vendors.  When you try and go "best of breed" in a mixed system a whole bunch of responsibility falls to the operator.
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1310
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2015, 05:57:55 am »

If you buy a powered system from a single vendor product line the alignment may be taken care of for you.

I went with etx18sp subs under etx tops because it was a simple setup with internal alignment and internal self protection.  Plug it together, hand it over to someone who will try and drive it too hard, and know that at the end of the show it won't be broken.

My passive rig was a techo's amusement ride.  Lets of fun knobs and settings, but it needed adult supervision.

The same inbuilt protection and alignment is available from most vendors.  When you try and go "best of breed" in a mixed system a whole bunch of responsibility falls to the operator.

There is no built in alignment of tops to subs because the two are located in physically separate and changeable spaces.

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Alex Berry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2015, 12:28:30 pm »

I am not trying to be mean by my next comment.

You are NOT educated.  You have simple been exposed to a little (a very little bit) of what is really going on.

It gets a lot more complicated-even doing the basic alignments.

For example-in almost no case is the same crossover freq used for the subs and the tops.

Electrically this may make sense-but not ACOUSTICALLY. And THAT is what is important-NOT the electrical response.

When was the last time you saw a sub or a full range cabinet that had a flat response around your crossover freq?

Not in the pro world I assure you.

And do you run your subs as the same level as your mains?  If not (most subs are run hotter) then the acoustical crossover is VERY different that the electrical.

And when you are talking about "phase response"-what seat are you talking about?  With the mains in the air and the subs on the ground-as you move around  you will need different delays for different seats.

So there is no "perfect" alignment.  Only a perfect alignment at ONE (or maybe a couple)  seat-but not all.

Understanding what you CAN and (more importantly) CANNOT fix is VERY important.

I'm glad you are learning-but this is just the tip of the iceberg.

NEVER STOP LEARNING!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, I really should have worded my response that you quoted differently. By my saying "I am now educated" I only meant that I am now educated to the fact that I shouldn't have been worrying as much about the "extra phase shift" as I was. Nothing more. I love this line of work, and I love learning as much about it as I possibly can. I was not trying to imply in any capacity that I was educated to all of the nuances involving phase response.

I have not heard the H3 series of Blackline, I have used some of the Blackline series.  They would not be my first choice for live sound but for EDM they may do well.

Any reasons as to why? Could you relate what you have heard to anything that I've heard (d&b J and V, QSC K, QSC KW, EV ETX, EV ZLX, JBL VRX, SoundBridge XYON)? I absolutely plan on demoing it, and am actually going to a show in July that has H3's and WS218X subs as their installed system, but I'd still love to get even the slightest of first impressions as I have absolutely no idea what to expect from the H3.

Quote
i do not know if they will sell them separately but for the cost of 4 WS218X and amplifiers and processing (depending on what amps and processing you are considering) you might be able to get DSX (or a smaller quantity of MSX) instead.  Self-powered, built in DSP.  That may be an option to consider.

I'm not really interested in getting anything from the MLA line, as I'm also relatively sure that Martin only sells MLA stuff as full, complete systems. Plus the WS218X will match perfectly with the WS18X.

Quote
I still would recommend hearing for yourself various options and seeing how they sound for what you need.  How they fit physically into your transport needs, look at what power is required for the various amplifier requirements, the pros and cons of each.  You can't get that from the brochures or spec sheets.

Like I already said, I absolutely plan on hearing all of this stuff before I buy any of it. I've already picked out amps and processing for everything (Crown XLS and Behringer DCX2496, regardless of people's feelings about XLS it fits perfectly into my budget, I already have one and love it, and they can be replaced down the road) and the pricing for the performance for the system as a whole seems very good to me.

If you buy a powered system from a single vendor product line the alignment may be taken care of for you.

I went with etx18sp subs under etx tops because it was a simple setup with internal alignment and internal self protection.  Plug it together, hand it over to someone who will try and drive it too hard, and know that at the end of the show it won't be broken.

I actually already have a pair of ETX-18SP subs and have used the 35P. I love the 35P for it's sound quality, but it doesn't stack up anywhere close to its adverstised SPL spec. Same goes for the 18SP, which is why I'm going to replace them most likely with the Martin WS18X (that or the Danley TH-118). I've already blown an 18SP somehow, and it just doesn't perform the way I was expecting it to. Plus it's not a scalable sub.

Quote
My passive rig was a techo's amusement ride.  Lets of fun knobs and settings, but it needed adult supervision.

The same inbuilt protection and alignment is available from most vendors.  When you try and go "best of breed" in a mixed system a whole bunch of responsibility falls to the operator.

You can get most of that protection with a passive system too with good outboard processing, which if I do end up going with a fully passive rig is exactly what I'm going to do. All of the limiters will be carefully set correctly (measuring the amps' output voltage with a sinewave input) and should perform just fine. No wondering or worrying if you're overpowering your speakers.
Logged

Lyle Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2015, 05:29:51 pm »

There is no built in alignment of tops to subs because the two are located in physically separate and changeable spaces.

Lee

If the tops aren't near the subs, then the delay required can be dialed into the DSP in the sub or top.
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1310
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2015, 05:49:21 pm »

If the tops aren't near the subs, then the delay required can be dialed into the DSP in the sub or top.

Exactly, the same thing that others have been saying in this thread.  Having same manufacturer subs and tops is of ZERO benefit sonically in terms of alignment. 
I was pointing out that there is no "internal" or "inbuilt alignment" as was referenced in your post.

Lee
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 05:51:48 pm by Lee Buckalew »
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Lyle Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2015, 05:57:04 pm »

I actually already have a pair of ETX-18SP subs and have used the 35P. I love the 35P for it's sound quality, but it doesn't stack up anywhere close to its adverstised SPL spec. Same goes for the 18SP, which is why I'm going to replace them most likely with the Martin WS18X (that or the http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=0ed178d6-1611-43d9-82c3-4fe7fe375997&groupId=216492Danley TH-118). I've already blown an 18SP somehow, and it just doesn't perform the way I was expecting it to. Plus it's not a scalable sub.

You can get most of that protection with a passive system too with good outboard processing, which if I do end up going with a fully passive rig is exactly what I'm going to do. All of the limiters will be carefully set correctly (measuring the amps' output voltage with a sinewave input) and should perform just fine. No wondering or worrying if you're overpowering your speakers.

Sorry to hear that you have blown an 18sp.  Did you kill a driver, or did the electronics break?

I find the etx18sp to be as loud or louder than comparable powered subs (PRX, KW,...)  There are certainly many other bigger boxes that get louder.  Some at LOT louder.  As with any rig, you need enough for your gig.

Setting limiter voltage protects you from overexcursion, but not from thermal failures. 

My point was that a coordinated system from a single vendor can have many issues looked after for you.

Logged

Lyle Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2015, 06:03:32 pm »

Exactly, the same thing that others have been saying in this thread.  Having same manufacturer subs and tops is of ZERO benefit sonically in terms of alignment. 
I was pointing out that there is no "internal" or "inbuilt alignment" as was referenced in your post.

Lee

Top and sub meet each other at the crossover frequency when stacked.  If they are out of position by X meters, calculate this in milliseconds and dial it into a box.

Yes this can be done outboard with
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1310
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2015, 06:26:21 pm »

Top and sub meet each other at the crossover frequency when stacked.  If they are out of position by X meters, calculate this in milliseconds and dial it into a box.

Yes this can be done outboard with

Incorrect, go back to Mac and Ivan's comments.  The distance converted to time is NOT the actual delay when measured whether stacked or not.  I know of no manufacturer who builds in delay like this between their powered subs and powered tops (there may be some that I don't know about) as there are usually multiple combinations of top model and sub model to choose from thereby making multiple combinations.  Additionally the proper crossover point, again, refer to the previous comments, is not a fixed frequency but varies based upon relative amplitude of the two pass bands.
You are correct that, in many cases self-powered systems take the many steps of properly matching system components, limiters, etc. out of the equation but alignment of subs to tops and configuration of crossover points (of the same) is not a fixed absolute in "matched" (or other) systems.

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 11   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.045 seconds with 24 queries.