ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 11   Go Down

Author Topic: Choosing the best sub for me  (Read 20586 times)

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8841
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2015, 12:52:29 pm »

And this is why I prefer to space out subs along the front of a stage. Assuming you have enough subs to go side-to-side at your preferred spacing.

This will allow the subs to couple and add at lower freqs, and be louder further away, but you aren't beating up on the front row as much. Since they are closer they "hear" fewer subs.

You can figure the spacing by using the 1/4 wavelength of the freq that you want additive coupling to start. For a large system I'll use the crossover freq (60 or 80 hz for Vertec for example) and set the subs a 1/4 wavelength apart at that freq.

So 1/4 wavelength of 60hz is 4.7 feet. Thats how much space I try to put between the subs.

Of course, do you make it center to center spacing? Or edge to edge? Its all about comprimises.
And of course the compromise with lining up the subs is that you start to narrow the horizontal pattern.

This could be good or bad-depending on the situation.

Yes you can delay the outer boxes-this can help, but it also hurts other areas.

And of course now you have nothing to "align  your tops to" since the bass is so spread out.

I do have a solution however.  All we need to do is to get the air temp up to something like 10,000 degrees.

Then the sound will greatly speed up, so it will act more like light and we would not have these timing problems.

All of these problem exist because air propagates so slowly through the air.

Then anybody could do it. you could just pile up speakers and party.

You might need a lot of water however-------------
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Alex Berry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2015, 01:06:36 pm »

Recompile your cranial firmware and leave car audio out of the build.  Nothing about car audio applies here.  What happens in that tiny space is some other parallel universe in which our laws don't apply.

103 dbA listening area (max), 124 dbC (max), comfortable audience pleasing listening as I said: 100ish dBA, 115-120 dBC, adjust balance to taste depending on style.

For a few hundred people for EDM, 2x SM80 + 6x TH-118 is a banging hi fi system.  That is two amplifiers per side.  Power it correctly and enjoy.

I have no experience with the Martin solution, sorry.

No offense, but AFAIK dB is dB. A 150 in a car, be it much MUCH easier to achieve than in a live sound setting, should still be the same as a 150 standing in front of the subs at a concert. I'm not saying I'm trying to achieve a 140 mid venue, the values you're suggesting are much closer to what I'm looking for. That rig you suggested is also pretty much exactly what I'm looking at. Although I do like the dispersion of the SM96 better, I'll simply have to demo both.

The SM96 is more "hi-fi" sounding-but the SM80 goes way louder (even if it does not look like it on the spec sheet).

The components are simply much stronger.

Since you will be using subs-personally I would go with the SM80.

It is far better to have a cabinet that has plenty of "get up and go" left in it than to push a cabinet right to the edge.

I agree that I'd rather have a cabinet that has plenty of headroom, but I think I like the 90x60 pattern better than the 80x80 pattern. Also price will end up being a factor. How many TH118s would you say it would take to keep up with a pair of SM96s? That should give me an idea of how much quieter the SM96 is than the SM80. Pretty much no matter which I end up going with will be much better and louder than what I have now and have used in the past.

I do have a solution however.  All we need to do is to get the air temp up to something like 10,000 degrees.

+10
Logged

Doug Fowler

  • Member since May 1995, 2nd poster on original LAB, moderator on and off since 1997, now running TurboMOD v1.826
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1694
  • Saint Louis, MO USA
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2015, 01:15:09 pm »

No offense, but AFAIK dB is dB. A 150 in a car, be it much MUCH easier to achieve than in a live sound setting, should still be the same as a 150 standing in front of the subs at a concert. I'm not saying I'm trying to achieve a 140 mid venue, the values you're suggesting are much closer to what I'm looking for. That rig you suggested is also pretty much exactly what I'm looking at. Although I do like the dispersion of the SM96 better, I'll simply have to demo both.

I agree that I'd rather have a cabinet that has plenty of headroom, but I think I like the 90x60 pattern better than the 80x80 pattern. Also price will end up being a factor. How many TH118s would you say it would take to keep up with a pair of SM96s? That should give me an idea of how much quieter the SM96 is than the SM80. Pretty much no matter which I end up going with will be much better and louder than what I have now and have used in the past.

+10

Where are you located?
Logged
"It's got electrolytes.  It's got what plants crave."

Alex Berry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2015, 01:16:11 pm »

Where are you located?

Central Pennsylvania.
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1317
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2015, 01:43:12 pm »

Thank you! This is much more in line with what I thought was correct. I understood that coupling tops wont actually couple them due to the wavelengths being way too short (hence why the Synergy Horn is awesome cause the MF/HF drivers do couple), but that you could get extra sensitivity from coupling subs. I'm actually going to test this tonight as well, as I really just want to see definitively for myself.

I never said you could never achieve an increase of 6 dB/SPL but, in a portable situation, with configurations differing, both in speaker layout and audience relative to speakers, it is rare to get an even increase across the whole frequency range and have that evenly throughout the whole space.  I never figure on an increase of 6 I figure on 4 which I have found to be more repeatable in various layouts.

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Alex Berry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2015, 01:47:37 pm »

I never said you could never achieve an increase of 6 dB/SPL but, in a portable situation, with configurations differing, both in speaker layout and audience relative to speakers, it is rare to get an even increase across the whole frequency range and have that evenly throughout the whole space.  I never figure on an increase of 6 I figure on 4 which I have found to be more repeatable in various layouts.

Lee

I'm more concerned with "if I put two subs together will I gain 6db or 3db". As you state, there are many other variables that will potentially prevent some of the coverage area from seeing the extra 6db, but as long as I haven't been doing the basic math totally wrong all this time I'm fine with assuming that when I couple two subs, I gain 6db.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 01:52:47 pm by Alex Berry »
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1317
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2015, 02:08:48 pm »

I'm more concerned with "if I put two subs together will I gain 6db or 3db". As you state, there are many other variables that will potentially prevent some of the coverage area from seeing the extra 6db, but as long as I haven't been doing the basic math totally wrong all this time I'm fine with assuming that when I couple two subs, I gain 6db.

It's fine if that's how you choose to look at it.  I, on the other hand, choose to plan on a 4dB/SPL increase because I can actually achieve it in most cases.  I may even be able to achieve better than 4 but I can't always get better.  Assuming a 6 dB/SPL increase is a bad idea, in my opinion, because it can not always be achieved.

Edited in:  you will also experience power compression due to heating of the drivers, especially with EDM.  This will also limit your output capability to below manufacturers rated output.

Lee
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 02:29:45 pm by Lee Buckalew »
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Alex Berry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2015, 02:33:23 pm »

It's fine if that's how you choose to look at it.  I, on the other hand, choose to plan on a 4dB/SPL increase because I can actually achieve it in most cases.  I may even be able to achieve better than 4 but I can't always get better.  Assuming a 6 dB/SPL increase is a bad idea, in my opinion, because it can not always be achieved.

Lee

And that's a better way to do it, but since I'm already used to a standard of 6db change, changing that could throw off all of my mental assumptions for the worse. I'm just using it to get a very rough idea of how loud a system will be. Nothing specific or meant to be relied upon.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8841
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2015, 03:18:39 pm »

It's fine if that's how you choose to look at it.  I, on the other hand, choose to plan on a 4dB/SPL increase because I can actually achieve it in most cases.  I may even be able to achieve better than 4 but I can't always get better.  Assuming a 6 dB/SPL increase is a bad idea, in my opinion, because it can not always be achieved.

Edited in:  you will also experience power compression due to heating of the drivers, especially with EDM.  This will also limit your output capability to below manufacturers rated output.

Lee
I would argue that given the small number of subs that are being talked about, if you put them together you could easily plan on a 6dB increase in SPL below 100hz.

Spreading them out is a different story.  But then we are back to the whole distance of the listener (measurement) vs spacing of the subs thing
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8841
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2015, 03:22:23 pm »

No offense, but AFAIK dB is dB. A 150 in a car, be it much MUCH easier to achieve than in a live sound setting, should still be the same as a 150 standing in front of the subs at a concert.
It is simply the "PRESSURE" of the air that is being "compressed".

In a small closed environment (such as a car) it is not that hard to get high SPL numbers.  Heck all you have to do is compress the roof a bit and get SPL numbers.

Now what it feels like and what it sounds like, can be very different things.

Such as with a butt shaker.  You kinda get the "sense" that there is a lot of bass (buy your body telling you it is shaking) but the actual SPL is much lower.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2015, 03:22:23 pm »


Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 11   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.054 seconds with 24 queries.