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Author Topic: Choosing the best sub for me  (Read 18369 times)

John L Nobile

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2015, 09:50:21 am »

Actually I did an EDM show about 6 years ago but I tried to flush it from my brain and it worked until now. :(
Over 700 drunken kids with a large S4 system. I remember counting 31 amps under the stage. I had earplugs in and it was still too loud for me. Guess I still didn't have it loud enough cause I never got called back.
But I got paid in cash.
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Alex Berry

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2015, 10:00:45 am »

I'm having a really hard time with those DB numbers. How is it even possible to be in a room with that kind of volume? Disclaimer.... I've never been to an EDM event.

Perhaps this specification will help. I was close to being centered in the room, and close enough to the rail that the difference in overall volume between where I was and at the rail was absolutely no different. At the rail I was close enough to the subs I could reach out and touch them. I was taking the brute force of a 12 box dual 18 cluster run at full volume in a small club. Have you ever been front row at a big concert with a large sub array? If so, you'll probably have experienced close to the same numbers. Maybe not in sustained notes but most likely with something like a kick drum peak. Ultra Music Fest mainstage in Miami I believe has even higher numbers front row with their crazy huge sub array.

As for how is it possible to be in a room with that kind of volume, well you can't really see very well because it's vibrating your eyes to such a high degree. It fully modulates the music, so the system didn't have any semblance of balance or even necessarily sound good in the hifi sense. It's also so physically loud that it has a sort of therapeutic effect. I was getting very sore as the night drew to a close as I'm a small guy and I wasn't really pacing myself, and whenever the bass would cut out during a breakdown the pain in my legs and my stomach would really set in. As soon as the bass came back it would almost totally get rid of the pain.

Here is a link to just about the setup/show you are talking about

Read the comments about more details of the event etc.  Before we had to turn it down (due to complaints from  4-5 miles away) we were around 124dB C at 100' outside. 

The BC218 (not the DBH218) goes lower than the TH118 and (within the TH118 operating range) it would take around 4 TH118s to equal a single BC218 and twice as many amp channels. 

The TH118 is easier to move around, but the BC218s are really not bad-despite what people claim who have never moved them.  But steps are going to KILL you.

The BC218 gives you more "SPL per dollar" than the TH118.  So everything is a trade off.

Sweet baby Jesus those SM80's are loud! That would leave plenty of room to grow volume wise as currently most of the events I do don't need more than 2 TH118's for sub coverage.

I think for me the TH118 is the best solution due to it's mobility being the biggest deciding factor. Personally I would love to just get TH412s instead, but I wouldn't be able to move it by myself, and I usually have to traverse at least a couple of stairs.

A sign maker saw some girls humping the speakers-so he made a sign.

One evening there was a couple that were actually "getting it on" with the girl pressed up against the main subs (BC415s).

She looked as if she was really enjoying the whole "experience".

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=866711980024849&set=pb.100000581642030.-2207520000.1433079146.&type=3&theater

Hahaha! It's a shame that Facebook link doesn't work, at least for me it doesn't.

Quote
Basically the full range cabinets are there to keep the bass from being so boring

While unfortunately this is the norm, I don't do this at the shows that I have control over the sound. While I do love the bass to be very loud, I don't like it to be so loud that it, as Stephen put it, obliterates the highs or is the main focus.

Actually I did an EDM show about 6 years ago but I tried to flush it from my brain and it worked until now. :(
Over 700 drunken kids with a large S4 system. I remember counting 31 amps under the stage. I had earplugs in and it was still too loud for me. Guess I still didn't have it loud enough cause I never got called back.
But I got paid in cash.

Most of the shows I've been to have actually been what I would consider to be WAY too loud in the mid/high department. For one example, I was at a show at Echostage in Washington, DC. Who knows why, but the front fills were pushed so far that vocalists in the songs sounded almost entirely like square waves. Who knows if it was the owner that liked that sound and thought it should be that way, or the FOH guy really didn't know what we was doing. But it seriously shouldn't have been that loud. At least a 120dbA where I was. The poor d&b V series cabs had to deal with way too much abuse that night.
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Alex Berry

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2015, 10:08:20 am »

The BC218 (not the DBH218) goes lower than the TH118 and (within the TH118 operating range) it would take around 4 TH118s to equal a single BC218 and twice as many amp channels.

Sorry for the double post, but something else I just thought of. Do TH118s not gain 6db when you double the number of cabinets? Looking only at the continuous numbers and assuming the TH118 does gain 6db when doubling, it should really only take 2 TH118s to equal one BC218 in continuous ouput.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2015, 10:13:08 am »

Sorry for the double post, but something else I just thought of. Do TH118s not gain 6db when you double the number of cabinets? Looking only at the continuous numbers and assuming the TH118 does gain 6db when doubling, it should really only take 2 TH118s to equal one BC218 in continuous ouput.

No speakers, in real life, will gain 6dB/SPL by doubling the number of cabinets, at least not evenly across there full band pass.  The real numbers are more like 3dB/SPL.  Also, you have to double the amplifier power as well, not just add more subs.  Since most 2x18's are a 4 ohm setup you add significant amp channels to increase output by adding cabinets rather than going to more efficient cabinets.  More efficient speakers = fewer required amp channels and lower total power required to get the same (or even greater) SPL.

Lee
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Alex Berry

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2015, 10:19:15 am »

No speakers, in real life, will gain 6dB/SPL by doubling the number of cabinets, at least not evenly across there full band pass.  The real numbers are more like 3dB/SPL. Also, you have to double the amplifier power as well, not just add more subs.

Wait, so assuming you double the number of subs and double the power, you'll only realistically see a 3db gain?

Quote
Since most 2x18's are a 4 ohm setup you add significant amp channels to increase output by adding cabinets rather than going to more efficient cabinets.  More efficient speakers = fewer required amp channels and lower total power required to get the same (or even greater) SPL.

I'd rather deal with the con of more amp channels to gain the pro of being able to easily move the individual subs around, and the additional pro of easily being able to scale down the system. Plus I just don't really need anything louder than a couple TH118s right now anyways.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2015, 10:30:19 am »

Wait, so assuming you double the number of subs and double the power, you'll only realistically see a 3db gain?

About 3dB/SPL gain across the operating frequency range, yes.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Alex Berry

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2015, 10:31:17 am »

About 3dB/SPL gain across the operating frequency range, yes.

Lee

Well that's a huge bummer. That just doubled the amount of subs I thought I needed.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2015, 10:43:02 am »

Well that's a huge bummer. That just doubled the amount of subs I thought I needed.

And could I draw your attention back to....😉

There are quite a number of things with sound that "in theory" should work a given way.  We don't like to remember what is actually required for the entire theory to hold true.  Much of the requirement can't happen in the real world with actual components.

Back to your comment.  Depending on how many cabinets this means that you ne to go to and how you would deploy them the addition of more cabinets can mean that you limit your coupling even more because the cabinet to cabinet to cabinet to cabinet, etc. spacing gets to be too great for coupling to occur.  This means that your real world increase of 3-4 dB/SPL for each doubling of cabinets and amplifier power has a finite limit of increase based upon your intended operating frequency range of the size of the array you create.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2015, 10:54:56 am »



I think for me the TH118 is the best solution due to it's mobility being the biggest deciding factor. Personally I would love to just get TH412s instead, but I wouldn't be able to move it by myself, and I usually have to traverse at least a couple of stairs.


The TH412 has a lot more output down below 35Hz, but is a bit larger to move around.  The TH118 goes up steps pretty easily
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Alex Berry

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Re: Choosing the best sub for me
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2015, 10:59:42 am »

And could I draw your attention back to....😉

There are quite a number of things with sound that "in theory" should work a given way.  We don't like to remember what is actually required for the entire theory to hold true.  Much of the requirement can't happen in the real world with actual components.

Back to your comment.  Depending on how many cabinets this means that you ne to go to and how you would deploy them the addition of more cabinets can mean that you limit your coupling even more because the cabinet to cabinet to cabinet to cabinet, etc. spacing gets to be too great for coupling to occur.  This means that your real world increase of 3-4 dB/SPL for each doubling of cabinets and amplifier power has a finite limit of increase based upon your intended operating frequency range of the size of the array you create.

Lee

Yea that's another great point. I was aware of that but selectively didn't like to think about it often. Semi off topic question, the bigger the array gets shouldn't the low end extension also increase? This being due to the fact that the far subs would only couple at lower frequencies? Lets say you have a cluster of 4 subs, cabinets being 21" wide. A sub left, B sub left center, C sub right center, D sub right. Subs A, B, and C would all couple at 80hz and below, and so would subs D, C, and B. But subs A and D would only couple at about 54hz and below. As you continued to add subs, wouldn't the low end extension of the system continue to increase due to this principle?

The TH412 has a lot more output down below 35Hz, but is a bit larger to move around.  The TH118 goes up steps pretty easily

Exactly why I would much rather use the TH412 but it's not exactly as practical as the TH118.
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