ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Best Old School Subs for EDM?  (Read 9384 times)

Kevin McDonough

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 08:10:45 am »

Hey

I have to agree with what the others say to be honest.

It's important to note I haven't heard it personally so couldn't say for certain, but I would be VERY surprised if the CV speaker you've linked is able to perform at the specs listed.

You mention 8' horn length, but I don't see that listed anywhere on the page. For a 21" driver and the slightly larger chamber that will need (compared to a hornloaded 18" for example) I don't see really how there could be room for that in the box, I'd estimate 6' most.

108db sensitivity and -3db at 35hz are also very hard to believe from a box like this. While I agree that "lies" is a strong word it's definitely exaggeration, whether they've used 2.83v at 4 ohms instead of 8, or the sensitivity and spl results are well out of band, or whatever, there's definitely something not quite right here.

Looking at similar horn products, take for example the EM acoustics "quake" subwoofer, a very well regarded 18" horn sub. While the spec's don't seem quite as impressive I would bet they are far more honest, and I would happily put my money on the Quakes wiping the floor with the CV subs.

I'm sure the CV's will still sound OK, but they're definitely a middle of the road company now and nowhere near what they once were.

I suppose the easiest thing to do in recommending some alternatives is to know a bit more about your situation.....

-When you say "$1999 per box with amps" how many boxes is that, do you mean just one box a side?  It would be better to know an overall budget.

-Do you want a scalable system where you can just take one or two subs out for small shows or more for bigger? Or will you always be taking the full system out?

- What sizes of venues/shows are you generally playing? Indoors or out?

I think if you take a couple of recomendations and do some listening tests to compare to other speakers, you'll find there are other options that could serve you better.



k

Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9142
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2015, 09:03:34 am »

  By the way, I think it's band pass subwoofer designs that are referred to as "one note"  The CV's are horn loaded , not bandpass. Have a very nice day!

"one note wonders" are not a specific design type-but rather an overall performance type that is based on the specific freq response of the product-NOT the type of product.

Yes bandpass cabinets can be very much a "one note wonder" but they can also have a pretty wide response-at the expense of shear output at some freq.

Horn designs can be the same thing (as proven by some designs).  THey can get really loud over  a very narrow range of freq-but do not extend very low.

You can even do the same thing (to a certain extent) with a simple ported design.

It is NOT about a specific design, but rather a set of tradeoffs to get a specific end result.

The "one note wonders" sacrifice overall freq response (specifically on the low freq) in order to "get loud".

A quick look at the ACTUAL freq response (NOT the simple numbers on the spec sheet-which often don't mean anything)

Heck- every loudspeaker EVER made (including tweeters) can EASILY reproduce 1Hz  Yes ONE Hertz.  But on a response graph you would not see this-but it could be put on the spec sheet under "freq response" and they would not be lying-----------

To some people loudness is more important than any sonic qualities.

But it all depends on what you are looking for-and different people look for different things.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

chuck clark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 348
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 05:36:43 am »

Hey

I have to agree with what the others say to be honest.

It's important to note I haven't heard it personally so couldn't say for certain, but I would be VERY surprised if the CV speaker you've linked is able to perform at the specs listed.

You mention 8' horn length, but I don't see that listed anywhere on the page. For a 21" driver and the slightly larger chamber that will need (compared to a hornloaded 18" for example) I don't see really how there could be room for that in the box, I'd estimate 6' most.

108db sensitivity and -3db at 35hz are also very hard to believe from a box like this. While I agree that "lies" is a strong word it's definitely exaggeration, whether they've used 2.83v at 4 ohms instead of 8, or the sensitivity and spl results are well out of band, or whatever, there's definitely something not quite right here.

Looking at similar horn products, take for example the EM acoustics "quake" subwoofer, a very well regarded 18" horn sub. While the spec's don't seem quite as impressive I would bet they are far more honest, and I would happily put my money on the Quakes wiping the floor with the CV subs.

I'm sure the CV's will still sound OK, but they're definitely a middle of the road company now and nowhere near what they once were.

I suppose the easiest thing to do in recommending some alternatives is to know a bit more about your situation.....

-When you say "$1999 per box with amps" how many boxes is that, do you mean just one box a side?  It would be better to know an overall budget.

-Do you want a scalable system where you can just take one or two subs out for small shows or more for bigger? Or will you always be taking the full system out?

- What sizes of venues/shows are you generally playing? Indoors or out?

I think if you take a couple of recomendations and do some listening tests to compare to other speakers, you'll find there are other options that could serve you better.



k

AH! Good ol' Quakes.. I had forgotten about them!  Well let's see, the quakes are listed as 47" tall and 37" deep so thats 84".  The CV's are roughly 43" by 43" so thats 86".  Quakes list their horn as being 9' soo, if you doubt the CV's are 8' I have to wonder why?
  Actually the quakes seem to be extremely similar and a very good example of old school designs that are good enough to do gigs w/ "new" music. 
   The CV's have a 2" longer horn. The CV's have a 21" instead of an 18" so -moving a bit more air.
The CV's are rated at 1000rms and 2000peak. The Quakes 800rms and 1600 peak. These boxes appear to be so close that telling the difference might be the biggest challenge.  Yet while I am struck by their similarity, you say the quakes are well regarded and would wipe the floor with the "middle of the road" Cv's.  Gee Kev, prejudice much?
I only have one question. How many quid are quakes bringing these days?  Need to compare them with the $1499 MAP on the Cerwins. Thanks!
Chuck 
Logged

chuck clark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 348
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 07:02:46 am »

Lol, NEW super tweeters  with frequency responce to 1hz! (-110db)  Now you've done it Ivan. people will be asking when Danley is coming out with this product. LOL!
As usual you are technically correct, There's plenty of cut corner cheap design's out there, but surely your not accusing Gene Cerwinski's award winning (at the time) folded horn design of being faulty!?  In all fairness they were around for 25+ yrs. before the term "one note" was coined to describe certain highly efficient but obnoxiously narrow band car subwoofer systems  that were surging in popularity at the time.
Chuck
Logged

Kevin McDonough

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 07:03:47 am »

AH! Good ol' Quakes.. I had forgotten about them!  Well let's see, the quakes are listed as 47" tall and 37" deep so thats 84".  The CV's are roughly 43" by 43" so thats 86".  Quakes list their horn as being 9' soo, if you doubt the CV's are 8' I have to wonder why?
  Actually the quakes seem to be extremely similar and a very good example of old school designs that are good enough to do gigs w/ "new" music. 
   The CV's have a 2" longer horn. The CV's have a 21" instead of an 18" so -moving a bit more air.
The CV's are rated at 1000rms and 2000peak. The Quakes 800rms and 1600 peak. These boxes appear to be so close that telling the difference might be the biggest challenge.  Yet while I am struck by their similarity, you say the quakes are well regarded and would wipe the floor with the "middle of the road" Cv's.  Gee Kev, prejudice much?
I only have one question. How many quid are quakes bringing these days?  Need to compare them with the $1499 MAP on the Cerwins. Thanks!
Chuck


Hi there

No not prejudice at all, just experience.

Firstly on the horn length, as you say the speaker boxes are a broadly similar size. The quake sub is based around basically the precision devices 1850 driver. It has a very stiff suspension, high power magnet, and is designed to work in horn speakers with small rear chambers.

Thee larger 21" driver of the CV sub will take up more space physically on its own and leave less room for horn path, however I don't think it's suspension or cone would be able to survive the pressures of a similarly small chamber, so it'll have a much bigger rear chamber, and the first horn section will have a much bigger throat to lower the compression rate, again lowering the simple physical space inside to fit the horn even more.

So as I say, I would estimate a shorter horn 6' at most, maybe even slightly shorter. There are some pictures of the sub layout in the brochure that's available from the website, I'll scale this is and measure, work it out exactly, when I get home.

And in terms of response and sound, again it's just based on experience. While the driver has more surface area being a 21" I don't think it'll be the same quality as the PD of the quake.

While it may be 1000w, all that tells you is that it can take the heat generated by 1000 in the voice coil without melting, doesn't actually tell you what it does with those watts or how efficiently it can covert those watts into sound. Being a bigger driver, with more mass in the cone it'll almost certainly be lower sensitivity than the quake driver.

Lower sensitivity, smaller compression ratio at the horn throat, and on that shorter horn there is simply no possible way they can reach that sensitivity figure.

Either they've looked at the sensitivity at 300hz or 1000hz or something, which is not a frequency that the sub would realistically play, or they've measured it at 4 ohms or some other trick of the small print to inflate the numbers. And the max spl will be the same.

Now I happily admit that I could be wrong. Maybe I would listen and compare the two and be blown away by the CV, as I said at the start of my other post I've never heard it. But these are all confident predictions based on experience with many different brands of speakers.

Wood is wood, and assuming the horn path and other things about the box are designed well, there's not masses can go wrong with that part. But I simply don't think the quality of the driver will be the same, they're definitely a middle brand now and not top tear.

In terms of prejudice it's seems, I would humbly submit, that the main person here is you towards CV more than anyone else.

I would be genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts though if you managed to compare them. A stack of 4 to get the proper mouth area against 4 quakes, 4 wsx or other high level horn loaded subs would be an interesting test.

K
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 10:14:20 am by Kevin McDonough »
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9142
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 07:49:24 am »

but surely your not accusing Gene Cerwinski's award winning (at the time) folded horn design of being faulty!?
I never said anything like that.  The "snail" design is a totally valid way to fold a horn.  Many people have done it-because it works.

But with ANY loudspeaker design-there are tradeoffs.  You can get louder or lower or flatter etc-but not all at once. The final design takes into account the "target market" and what they are looking for, what they "test techniques" are and so forth.

What is important to one person is not so important to other people.

As usual-It depends.

And BTW, you can win awards for all kinds of different things.

In terms of loudspeakers it could be simple loudness-or flat response-or extension or the fact that somebody wanted to "give an award".

I love it at trade shows when they go around to manufacturers and ask them if they want to be included in the "best new product" or something like that.

But you ONLY get to be included if you PAY the entrance fee.

If you don't pay-then you are not considered-no matter how good the product is.

So what it SHOULD say is "Best new product based on who know what criteria of the people who PAID to be considered".

In my opinion it means nothing.  Payola goes a long way--------

I remember reading an article once and they were talking about the steak house adds that said something like "Chosen by the Texas steak house cattlemans association as the best steak house in Texas".

OK, But the funny thing was that there were only 2 members of this "organization", and they were also the owners of the steakhouse in question.

You can say all kinds of things-it is backing them up with facts that is a bit harder.

I honestly think that is why the current trend of not providing any real useful specs is getting popular-even at the highest levels of our industry.

How are specs for the wattage of an amp like "adequate" useful?

What does a the spec of "normal" or "wide" tell you about a loudspeakers coverage?

I guess if you don't put down any real numbers-then nobody can hold you to them-or accuse you of "not meeting your specs"----------

Maybe those specs are useful to somebody-not me.

There I go again trying to get practical-----
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Kevin McDonough

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2015, 10:58:38 am »

Hey

Just to confirm, just drew up a scale drawing from the picture of the TS-42 in the brochure, and even being generous I make it about 77",  which is about 6'5".  A touch more than the 6' I suspected but very close, definitely not close to 8'.

k
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9142
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2015, 04:55:13 pm »

Hey

Just to confirm, just drew up a scale drawing from the picture of the TS-42 in the brochure, and even being generous I make it about 77",  which is about 6'5".  A touch more than the 6' I suspected but very close, definitely not close to 8'.

k
It is not as "simple" as the actual path length may suggest.

In a "straight horn"-it pretty much is that simple.

But in a folded horn-rarely is the horn path nice and smooth-and expanding evenly.

So it is more the " equivalent air volume" in the horn, rather than the actual length.

This can make it longer or shorter than the length-at least in terms of where the low corner is.

So once again-it depends--------
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2015, 05:32:10 pm »

From the website:  "The TS-42 Folded Horn delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs and includes a curved horn mouth bracing for smoother frequency response"

I've built a few cabinets over the years.  I fail to see what having an arc in the vertical center brace does for the performance of the cabinet.  Or how it "smooths" the response.  If anything, whatever resistance is offered by a 3/4" brace is completely different over the height of the mouth the way they've configured it.  Again, I don't think it makes any appreciable difference but I could see trying to arc it inward so that whatever it's effect is, it's even over the path length.

Such non-technical hype is a red flag for me.  When I see someone BS'ing me about things I understand, I figure that they're surely BS'ing me on things I can't see or don't understand.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9142
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2015, 06:48:08 pm »

From the website:  "The TS-42 Folded Horn delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs
I guess it depends on how you define "bass" and "square inch".

I've never seen the measurement of "bass per square inch" on products to be able to compare.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2015, 06:48:08 pm »


Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.037 seconds with 23 queries.