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Author Topic: Best Old School Subs for EDM?  (Read 9422 times)

chuck clark

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Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« on: May 23, 2015, 09:23:16 am »

Done a good bit of looking around. The Cerwin Vega TS 42's have a SERIOUS performance spec.  A bit big, but under 250 lbs. with built in wheels so 1 guy can ramp it into the trailer/truck. Very efficient, so you can get full performance without having to fork out the big bucks for mega-watt amps. I know a guy whose buying old Crown CE 2000's and strapping them in mono for 2000 watts each. He's achieving stunning volume levels without clipping!  Hmmm.  Available for under $ 1500 a box!  Good ol' Cerwin Vega! Should these be crowned the current "bang for buck" kings?
Chuck
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2015, 10:17:14 am »

Done a good bit of looking around. The Cerwin Vega TS 42's have a SERIOUS performance spec.  A bit big, but under 250 lbs. with built in wheels so 1 guy can ramp it into the trailer/truck. Very efficient, so you can get full performance without having to fork out the big bucks for mega-watt amps. I know a guy whose buying old Crown CE 2000's and strapping them in mono for 2000 watts each. He's achieving stunning volume levels without clipping!  Hmmm.  Available for under $ 1500 a box!  Good ol' Cerwin Vega! Should these be crowned the current "bang for buck" kings?
Chuck

I have no idea about the speakers in question-but often you need to look a bit closer than "simple numbers".

How low do you need to REALLY go?

For some styles 50Hz is fine.

For others 30 hz is acceptable.

And for others, 20Hz is needed in order to accurately reproduce what the artist is producing.

The next question is what is the REAL response of any sub you are looking at-I am not talking about what numbers are on the spec sheet.

Look at the measured response (WITHOUT processing) to get an idea of the realistic capabilities.

If the measured response includes "processing"-then often that includes boosting at the lower freq.

This can work at lower levels, but as  you turn it up you will "run out of gas" at the freq that were boosted.

So what you "think" you are getting is very different from reality.

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Tim Weaver

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2015, 10:55:54 pm »


Done a good bit of looking around. The Cerwin Vega TS 42's have a SERIOUS performance spec.  A bit big, but under 250 lbs. with built in wheels so 1 guy can ramp it into the trailer/truck. Very efficient, so you can get full performance without having to fork out the big bucks for mega-watt amps. I know a guy whose buying old Crown CE 2000's and strapping them in mono for 2000 watts each. He's achieving stunning volume levels without clipping!  Hmmm.  Available for under $ 1500 a box!  Good ol' Cerwin Vega! Should these be crowned the current "bang for buck" kings?
Chuck

No. Because they SERIOUSLY lie about their capabilities.

CE2000's have a bad habit of dying randomly.  You can't predict it or prevent it. The CE4000 is safe to use, but not the 1000 or 2000. There's a reason why they are so cheap.

It would cost 3000 to buy 2 CV TS-42's. For that kind of money you could buy 4 dual 18's on the used market and have a rig that is much better suited to EDM. You could also buy 3 PRX-XLF subs and have the amps already built in. Since you wouldn't have to buy multiple amps to run them, you could buy another XLF and make it a nice even number.

OR, buy some JTR subs and really get down to business.


OR, buy a single TH812 and a couple giga-watt amps and melt faces.  Thats what I would do.
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chuck clark

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2015, 02:39:13 am »

How low do you need to REALLY go?

For others 30 hz is acceptable.

So what you "think" you are getting is very different from reality.

Um yeah, I've been mixing for over 30 years. and at one point owned 16 CV PE 36's so, what I "think"
I'm getting is actually pretty well ironed out by now, thanks. I know that spec sheets suffer from everything from typo's to outright lying so I only use them as a starting point. I know that the horn quits adding efficiency at the 1/4 wavelength so the 6' horn on my old earthquakes calculates a corner freq. of 46hz while the  TS 42's are pretty obviously an updated version of the ol' earthquakes on steroids. An 8' horn calculates to quit adding efficiency below 35hz. The Stroker" technology tells me that engineering has improved the linear excursion and voice coil cooling and added a 3rd spider for voice coil stability under heavy use. Not something cheapo manufacturers do or are sometimes even aware of.    I'm happily playing Skrillex tracs thru my PA and I'm filtering everything below 30hz.  Although it's a good 12 db down or so I can still hear 20 hz pretty well on my test tones.  While your right of course that too many people are too trusting of spec numbers, ask yourself what a 21" good linear excursion driver on an 8' horn from an experienced manufacturer of good bass boxes probably gonna do?  If you guessed "Knock some nuts!" you'd be right.
Chuck
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chuck clark

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2015, 03:31:56 am »

No. Because they SERIOUSLY lie about their capabilities.
OR, buy some JTR subs and really get down to business.
OR, buy a single TH812 and a couple giga-watt amps and melt faces.  Thats what I would do.

Gee Tim, Cerwin Vega's been around a long time. Pretty well known quantity. My 25 yrs. of first hand experience with them says marketing may fudge a little and be subject to hyperbole but to call engineering outright liars is a tad extreme and not really fair. Their are WAY worse out there. I've always found their products to be good quality and not junk, which is more than I can say for some other manufacturers.

   I'll never forget the 1st time I turned on a new CE2000 @ guitar center. PIFF! Something blew and the power indicator lamp went back out. "Well that's impressive" I said to the sales guy. This was with nothing hooked up neither input or output - just power up and Pifft!  I thought that after an initial bad part run the issue was cleared up. Anyway I had no good impression of them either, but a DJ friend had gotten his hands on a couple for cheap and came to me for help. I told him the only way to MAYBE get enough power out of these is strap em into mono. I helped him wire them up and we hooked them to some old Soundtech double 18's in the shop to test them and... holy crap! Everything in the shop was vibrating and it seemed like the speakers were gonna come out of the boxes. I glanced at the indicator lights and ...No clipping!  Ok, I thought to myself, that's definitely how to run those. Lol.  He got em used for $200 each and a little bit of shipping. He's DJ'ing shows with them and is very happy. (He's young and strong so the weight doesn't bother him)

A couple questions: What kind of double 18's are you finding for $750 (4 for 3000)
  and don't TH 812's weigh like 500+ lbs? Seriously, how do you plan on moving these around?
I love Orbit Shifters but aren't they $$$?  I have an absolute limit of $1999 per box WITH amplification
Have a great day! 
Chuck

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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2015, 08:11:20 am »

Cost per box is arbitrary.  Total cost for sub(s) and amp(s) is important.  I'd rather have one amazing sub and amp than lots of mediocre stuff.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2015, 09:09:42 am »


  and don't TH 812's weigh like 500+ lbs?
Yes they are heavy-but you must ALSO ask-how much would "regular" cabinets weigh that can produce the same SPL at the same low freq response?

You will quickly find out that regular cabinets would weigh more and take up more space in the truck-so now the TH812 looks light and small.

We move them around all the time-How do you think we do demos with them.  We just push them in and out of the trucks-trailers etc.  If we flip them- a couple of guys do it pretty easy. However we don't carry them up steps or flip them with 1 person.

But I doubt if you are doing gigs up steps you need the output of the TH812.  What is the rest of the system in that case?

There is a reason that the TH812s have been used in a lot of stadiums-where the weight of the sound system is a concern in terms of structure support.  The reason?  The designers get more output with less weight.

It is the TOTAL (weight-size-cost etc) for a  specific performance that is important-NOT the individual pieces.

It all depends on what you are looking at doing.

There are lots of different tools for different reasons.
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Scott Carneval

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Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2015, 11:58:25 am »

Chuck it sounds like you already came in here with your mind made up. What's the point of asking a question if you're just going to bash two well respected members of the forum just because they didn't validate your wishful thinking?  There's a reason people don't use the CV subs and that's because they just aren't very good. They can get loud at a certain frequency but they don't sound good doing it. There's a reason these are called 'one note wonders'.


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« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 01:45:36 pm by Scott Carneval »
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John L Nobile

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2015, 12:25:13 pm »

My first PA was 2 CV V35's and they sounded great for what was available at the time. We always got compliments on our sound. But this was the 70's/80's. I also had a pair of CV "studio monitors" that had good clarity. Made for a great home system when I gave up on my studio dreams. Disclaimer, I got them for "almost free"
I honestly find it hard to beleive that CV, with all these years of experience, would produce a substandard product. They've made a lot of subs over the years.
While they may not be my first choice, users on a budget would probably be better looking at CV offerings rather than some others. Seismic comes to mind as well as Guitar Ctr offerings.
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chuck clark

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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 01:15:20 am »

Chuck it sounds like you already came in here with your mind made up. What's the point of asking a question if you're just going to bash two well respected members of the forum just because they didn't validate your wishful thinking?  There's a reason people don't use the CV subs and that's because they just aren't very good. They can get loud at a certain frequency but they don't sound good doing it. There's a reason these are called 'one note wonders'.


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I hold both Ivan and Tim in high regard and had zero intent of bashing anyone personally.  I answered them both  calmly,with logic and 1st hand experience.  After designing, building, installing, repairing and tuning sound systems for 30 yrs. I can assure you there is precious little "wishful thinking" on my part.  When you own 16 units and someone tells you those speakers aren't very good it makes you think "well, thanks for enlightening me. REALLY!?  Thankgoodness I have you to clue me in."    Sorry.  Actually you illustrate my point exactly, which is that as a fairly high performing subwoofer with some similarities to some of the best subs money can buy, the cerwin vega ts 42's seem to be the Rodney Dangerfields of subwoofer world. Consistently good , yet- NO respect I tell ya!  By the way, I think it's band pass subwoofer designs that are referred to as "one note"  The CV's are horn loaded , not bandpass. Have a very nice day!
Chuck
Chuck
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Re: Best Old School Subs for EDM?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 01:15:20 am »


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