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Author Topic: JBL VRX 932 "Straight away" (?) rails to strighten a VRX curve for more boxes  (Read 11741 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Borrow or rent any ITech HD, hook it up to a windows laptop running Audio Architect and load whatever device file you choose, and measure away.  Then load the V4 "emulated original I Tech" device files for the same models and compare with your saved measurements.

The HD series uses the same DSP platform as the BSS London (whatever Secret Sauces are therein, FIR, etc) so perhaps someone here with London chops can share.

As for why the same result could not be achieved, I can only say "black box, complete system."  JBL has plenty of company in this regard - l'acoustic, Meyer, d&b, NEXO, etc.  The designer picks from the tools at his/her disposal.

I'm glad that JBL steps up and supports existing products with improved processing and better aural results.  Anything that helps the VRX is fine by me. ;)
I guess my question is "what is making it "better"".

What is "better" amplitude response-phase-some curve etc.?

Surely when something is "improved" there is a way to measure it.

I know some people like a specific curve when listening to music playback (CD-file etc), but how does that curve translate to when mixing a live band.

Me personally, I prefer a flat response system to mix a band on-but do agree that it may not be "the best sounding" when listening to a CD playback-especially at higher levels.

Our "listening curve" preference changes with SPL.  Hence the old "loudness" button on older stereos.

What may sound great at 85dB may sound "harsh" at 105dB-yet the response is the same.

Make it correct at 105 and it can sound "dull and without detail" at 85dB.

Hence the reason I like a flat response from the system-and then make adjustments on the console as needed.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Keith Broughton

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Well, and help finding the brackets if still out there appreciated.

If the speakers are good boxes or not, that's another debate. Since we are more of a "come get it" rental house then a sound company,  we buy items to rent that others ask for. In the Michigan market, we were asked over and over for these by hotels, corporate type sound outfits, and did not own them, we had EAW, etc. But the area is full of VRX owners that want to match up, who often want more boxes like theirs to handle a "B" 2nd stage, make delay speakers in a large ballroom, hang in blocks of 2 off truss structures around a boxing ring, whatever.  So if I was picking the best box for a given job, maybe?...maybe not. If someone asks for a Fender Twin Reverb......a vrx box.....a hog light console.....it's a yes or no answer, or they move on with their money until they find who does.

I just want the brackets since I am stuck with them anyhow. Truthfully on any larger outdoor shows we get stuck on I will use the EV stuff first, but I still would not mine having the adapters since we have the truss, cranks, flyware, etc already......why not. But I will say most 932 owners do not power them well. We have the Crown I tech 1200HD (on board BSS processor) and that amp running these are a whole different world then our MA5002VZ or RMX5050's w/drive rack. That matters.
The box is already optimized for the horn patterns. Why add more comb filtering to an already bad sounding speaker?
I have used them in 1-2-3 and 4 box configurations.
The 2 box is not bad and actually looks reasonably good in SMAART.
Any more boxes and it just gets nasty so to "flatten" the array would only make a bad situation worse!
Also,  modified DIY rigging hardware is simply not worth the potential for personal injury or financial liability in the case of an accident.
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Spenser Hamilton

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The HD series uses the same DSP platform as the BSS London (whatever Secret Sauces are therein, FIR, etc) so perhaps someone here with London chops can share.

Yet Harmon won't let us run V5 on our Londons  >:(
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Kevin Maxwell

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I guess my question is "what is making it "better"".

What is "better" amplitude response-phase-some curve etc.?

Surely when something is "improved" there is a way to measure it.

I know some people like a specific curve when listening to music playback (CD-file etc), but how does that curve translate to when mixing a live band.

Me personally, I prefer a flat response system to mix a band on-but do agree that it may not be "the best sounding" when listening to a CD playback-especially at higher levels.

Our "listening curve" preference changes with SPL.  Hence the old "loudness" button on older stereos.

What may sound great at 85dB may sound "harsh" at 105dB-yet the response is the same.

Make it correct at 105 and it can sound "dull and without detail" at 85dB.

Hence the reason I like a flat response from the system-and then make adjustments on the console as needed.

Do you think that applies universally to all music playback on a particular system or does it vary album by album?

I was listening to concert broadcast on TV and it just didn’t sound right to me. My TV is hooked up to decent speakers for the size room it is in. I warned the others in the room that I was going to crack up the volume. The mix came together at a level I wouldn’t’ really want to listen to it. I said aha that is the level the show was mixed at in the control room. I have found if you mix a show for broadcast (and I assume this also works for an album) at a certain level it has a tendency to fall apart if played back at a lower level. But if you mix it lower it will hold together louder, but not the other way around.

I am wondering if this comes into play with a live system when using playback. And with either playback in your home or on a live sound system you can play with the “Loudness Curve” to get the sound you desire.
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Ivan Beaver

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Do you think that applies universally to all music playback on a particular system or does it vary album by album?


It varies quite a bit from  song to song.

If you have an fairly accurate system, and listen to a variety of tracks you will find yourself wanting to change the eq from song to song-ESPECIALLY on the low freq side of things.

On one song the bass is fine, on the next it is to loud, and then it is to quiet.

You have to remember that songs are mixed on different qualities and timbe of speakers.

So what sounded "right" to the mix engineer may not sound right to you.

If you find you have to turn the bass down-then that is a good indication that "mix system" had the subs that were set to low for the mains. 

So the mix engineer ended up turning up the bass freq to make up for it.

The same goes for the upper mids.  If the mix was done at low level-and you turn it up, they can get a bit harsh.

While if the mix was done at a high level-the mix person probably pulled back the 3-4KHz region to keep it from being harsh.

Hence the reason I insist on having the system flat-so that it is a "white canvas" upon which the mix person can "paint" whatever sound they want-without having to "counter" some particular/predetermined curve.

The problem is that most systems are "evaluated" using prerecorded  material-so the "tone" of the system might be "preset" for a particular style of recording.

It could be very different with a different recording.

That-and many people simply get "sucked in" to "the latest presets"-so they MUST be better-without even doing any real evaluation. 

They just "follow along with the flock" and don't want to give any real opinion-for fear that they might be ridiculed.

If you don't understand what is really happening-how can you make any useful decisions?  HENCE the reason to gain some understanding of what we deal with all the time.

Or just keep "regurgitating" what others tell them.

I know this offends some people-but they simply cannot think or make decisions for themselves.  And manufacturers know that.

I better stop now before I say something that will offend somebody :)

Sometimes the truth hurts :(
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Lee Buckalew

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Yet Harmon won't let us run V5 on our Londons  >:(

V4 either in a current software and current firmware.
V4 presets can only be run in London processors with London Architect which is at end of life.  Current software is Audio Architect.
I am not sure when they will be moving forward with any V5 in London processors or in DCiN amps.  The answers vary depending upon which company you actually talk with.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Ivan Beaver

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V4 either in a current software and current firmware.
V4 presets can only be run in London processors with London Architect which is at end of life.  Current software is Audio Architect.

That is what concerns me with processor based systems.

They can get old-only work with outdated computer systems and so forth.

Old analog gear from the 30's can still be fixed and kept working----------

All the "fancy digital" stuff is great WHILE IT IS WORKING-but when it dies-it dies real hard and may be hard to keep working in the future.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Scott Holtzman

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I think Ivan has used his quota of emoticons for this quarter.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Andrew Klingensmith

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The idea is officially dead. Their will be NO VRX "straightening bars" here. We will keep them in their place and not try to make them any more. I have 7 pcs, odds are we stop there (maybe the odd man out will be an OK front fill, being small)

We do have the I tech 1200 HD's

Cheers, and thanks for everyone's .02 cents. Obviously ssking the question BEFORE we did anything. Hopefully not taken as anything we DID do, when just asking about something (disclaimer to Mr. Sue-em'-silly) 
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Andrew

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Re: JBL VRX 932 "Straight away" (?) rails to strighten a VRX curve for more boxes
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2015, 01:56:29 pm »


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