ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8   Go Down

Author Topic: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles  (Read 19211 times)

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3422
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 05:22:22 pm »

Yep.  Part of my job as SE is helping the BE with the desk and any processing.  If you'd never used a Heritage 3000 or PM4000, it's my job to help you, same as if you were on an unfamiliar digital mixer.

The "daunting" part of any mixer is configuring it, not so much actually mixing the show on it.  If you can't set levels, make EQ decisions, etc because the desk runs on ONES and ZEROs, you probably can't do any better on an analog desk.

And in the situation I mentioned above, I even told him "You send us your tech rider, stage plot and input list, and we'll make sure a board is programmed and ready for you." Of course, his rider shows 22 monitor mixes or something... for a two person performance group.........
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20853
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2015, 05:49:16 pm »

And in the situation I mentioned above, I even told him "You send us your tech rider, stage plot and input list, and we'll make sure a board is programmed and ready for you." Of course, his rider shows 22 monitor mixes or something... for a two person performance group.........

The near and long term problem for analog mixers has been mentioned up-tread:  maintenance.   There will be no such thing as "new" parts very soon and a cottage industry of refurbishing faders and other mechanical/electrical devices will be needed; likewise some electronic parts will be harder and harder to source.  New, old stock will be a craps shoot.

Not that this can't be done, only that it will be increasingly expensive for gear that, with most of us, won't go out very often.  The shops that specialize in console rentals are in the best position to be the niche vendors as they're already invested in parts and have the techs to rebuild things.  Local or regional shops that keep their big analog desks up to snuff will find the expense vs income to be less appealing every year as the desks go out less and less.

What I find illuminating is that quality outboard gear - the BSS dynamic EQs, Empirical Distressors, BSS gates/comps - held value much better than the consoles.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

dave briar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 290
  • Helena Montana
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2015, 09:01:57 pm »

  --snip--
What I find illuminating is that quality outboard gear - the BSS dynamic EQs, Empirical Distressors, BSS gates/comps - held value much better than the consoles.
...because, while less essential than previously, they "can" be used with the newer desks? 

   ..dave
Logged
..db

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20853
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2015, 09:24:20 pm »

...because, while less essential than previously, they "can" be used with the newer desks? 

   ..dave

Not so much that they still have purpose but proportionately how much more value remained.  Interestingly when we sold off our BSS 504s/404s they were purchased by a recordist.  Dynamics processing was the hands-down winner; old EFX and even "nice" EQ like the KT DN405 and DN410 didn't retain as much value.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Matthew Knischewsky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 374
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2015, 12:51:02 am »

Well the customer may always be right but I'd suggest this BE is going to find it harder and harder to find sound companies with analog decks going forward.  Time to join the 21'st century yes?

   ..dave

Consoles are tools. Each tool has it's pros and cons, one engineer's pros may be another's cons. Consoles are also technology, which is constantly evolving, changing. I find that certain changes and trends in new consoles sacrifice attributes that I often find important in analog consoles (and some older digital consoles). One attribute I cannot argue with is features VS cost of digital consoles.

When I have the choice I choose tools that best serve the task at hand. If it's mixing a band I generally prefer an analog console but I can make it happen on any digital console. If it's corporate or theatre I'd rather have something digital, generally.

An artist I work for plays summer festivals where 10-15 minute change overs with no sound check is the norm. I spend 7-12 of those minutes on stage making sure everything gets on stage, gets mic'd and the monitors are happy so I heavily rely on the FOH system tech to make sure the FOH is working. Advancing a show file for a digital console is pretty much a no go, too many variables not enough time to sort them out. I'd much rather arrive out front to an analog FOH because, for me at least, it's so much more intuitive, so much easier to know where things are at a quick glance. I don't have to worry about flipping pages, or what page I'm on. There's arguments to be made for digital as well, having options available for comps, gates, etc…but I'd prefer analog in this case.

I find the better the band is the less I rely on tools to "fix" the sound.

In my experience one big bonus for digital is it either works or it doesn't (for the most part). Scratchy pots and bad assign switches are a thing of the past…but flaky motorized faders are now a problem. Also, If the best console a small time provider can afford is an X32 it's certainly better then the Mackie, A&H GL or partially working analog console it replaced. For so many it seems easier to draw the line at where a piece of gear is unsuitable to go out the door for a show.

Keeping analog running is going to be a challenge going forward. It seems the Heritage series is particularly susceptible to damage to it's multi layer circuit boards, so once all the spares are used up that could be it for these units (and others I'm sure). Some consoles are more robust and easier/cheaper to maintain so can remain in service longer.

There's a lot of people in this business that are gadget enthusiasts. They love new toys, gotta have the latest and greatest. That's fine for them, and for me in some cases, but I have a gig to do and I'd prefer the technology didn't get in the way of it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:04:54 am by Matthew Knischewsky »
Logged

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2015, 05:14:17 pm »

I was thinking of a small operator I know (well, big enough to field a pile of KF850s/SB1000s) who bought one of those entry level analog Midas mixers to have the name on his list, right before the lower priced digital boom.
Logged

Rick Powell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 809
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2015, 04:23:28 pm »

And in the situation I mentioned above, I even told him "You send us your tech rider, stage plot and input list, and we'll make sure a board is programmed and ready for you." Of course, his rider shows 22 monitor mixes or something... for a two person performance group.........

LOL! One of my friends got spec'd an Avid SC48 for a 2-person acoustic show (an 80's icon and an accompanist, basically an acoustic show) because their BE requested it.  Turns out, he couldn't figure out how to fly the console and neither could the provider, although they did manage to muddle their way through the gig.  The provider's LS9, which would have been perfect for the gig and which was intimately familiar to the provider, sat in the truck. 

I suspect this was the first time that what was asked for on the rider actually got provided, proving the old adage - "be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it!"  :)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 04:26:54 pm by Rick Powell »
Logged

Geri O'Neil

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2015, 01:44:43 pm »

I suspect this was the first time that what was asked for on the rider actually got provided, proving the old adage - "be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it!"  :)

Oh, no. No, not at all. We went through that with a Pro 2 and a Pro 3 on different occasions. Now I know my way around both because of those occasions. After I fully explained to the BE that we can provide the desks, but we are NOT totally familiar with them. I was assured that it was no problem, the BE was fully capable on the desks. I got them going, but afterwards, we made sure that a tech familiar with whatever came in was included in the price that was passed on to the buyer.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20853
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2015, 01:48:57 pm »

Oh, no. No, not at all. We went through that with a Pro 2 and a Pro 3 on different occasions. Now I know my way around both because of those occasions. After I fully explained to the BE that we can provide the desks, but we are NOT totally familiar with them. I was assured that it was no problem, the BE was fully capable on the desks. I got them going, but afterwards, we made sure that a tech familiar with whatever came in was included in the price that was passed on to the buyer.

Several years ago I delivered a Big Analog mixer and outboard rack while the festival FOH tech was reading the new digital console's manual.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Galvin Pavlov

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 06:04:36 am »

You said it brotha!

Hi Tim,

Thanks for that story. It just confirms that digital consoles, which are really just computers with a more elaborate and specific user interface, are going to follow the computer long-term-value model, which is new models have more features at a lower entry price than previous generations but turn into junk as yet newer generations appear.

That is why the price vs. feature set vs. longevity is much more palatable to me for an X32 than for a CL5 or Vi6 or XL8 or whatever for my world.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: The Value of Large-Format Analog Consoles
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 06:04:36 am »


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.055 seconds with 24 queries.