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Author Topic: When to use line array or not?  (Read 33517 times)

Steve M Smith

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2015, 02:42:51 pm »

which also tend to cost 6 to 10 dB or more$.


I initially misread that and thought you were measuring a difference in price in dB. That would be a sure sign that you were an engineer rather than an accountant!


Steve.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2015, 02:45:35 pm »

We are not an advertising driven company and we have never given stuff away to get it on tours etc and it would have been much much easier marketing and engineering wise had we gone with the industry flow and used the array approach given the cumulative effect of marketing of them. 
Tom, with the greatest respect and appreciation for your products and technical insights (and I am a Danley owner), you get more marketing on PSW out of Ivan's posts (and Mike's when he's here) than any other manufacturer gets away with.  I appreciate Ivan's forum contributions as well, but the "anyone who chooses a line array is an idiot" attitude as shown in Ivan's first post on this thread gets a little tiring.  I know you guys may not believe this, but there are actually a few instances when a non-Danley product is the right choice.
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Tom Danley

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2015, 02:52:01 pm »

Thank you for your response Ivan.  I appreciate your insight.  But what I got out of all that, is that the initial statement went from "the balance of highs and lows stay the same as you walk away" to "compared to arrays horns can project less sound to the rear".   My question was directly related to how I was told in a previous post on horns behave.  It seems the response hardly touched on that, and instead focused on the shortfalls of linear arrays.   It would be nice if you could clarify your response, without bashing other technology. 
 

I am not sure what you mean by this comment.  I am a system designer and system tech.  I design systems with products from a variety of manufactures, including a company that you work for.  I feel each company has product offerings that make them a proper choice for each one of my customers, be it price, performance, aesthetics, or any number of other variables. I am not committed to any one design philosophy, and that should be evident as my fellow designers and I have personally paid to travel to numerous Danley "flagship installations" (and even designed and installed a few).   I have a very hard time designing speakers into a project in which I have not actually listened to...no matter how great they look on the computer screen.   

At the end of the day, I simply asked for clarification to a statement that seemed impossible for any speaker to achieve and in return I got a response focused on the downfalls of line arrays.   If you are going to try to sell your product to me, tell me why your stuff rocks, not why the other guys stuff sucks.

Hi David

Yes, I took the liberty of responding before Ivan, I am familiar with how our products work so I figured that was ok, I hope that didn’t disqualify me.   
Perhaps I could have been clearer about the benefit of horn loading, constant directivity as a goal and how an interference pattern prevents that.   
Yes, it’s hard to convey what all that means without hearing it but it is a fact that to the degree one avoids the array’s interference pattern and has CD, then the spectral balance really doesn’t change appreciably with distance and wind has close to no effect on what you hear out front. 

Also, it would be hard to explain the difference between the ride using a wooden wheel with no suspension vs a pneumatic tire and shock absorbers without mentioning some of the down sides one finds with the wooden wheel and up sides to the pneumatic tire by comparison.   Since in this instance, these are all technical and acoustic facts,  I would not say that mentioning them is “bashing” a product anymore than saying class D amplifiers are more efficient and make less heat than class A or AB etc, it is not about who’s product it is, it is a fundamental basic design issue / difference not brand bashing.

Getting back to the OP, perhaps you could explain the technical and sonic up sides to the line array approach, also without mentioning brands.     
Perhaps like us, you have also made STIpa measurements or response vs position measurements to compare the approaches or made some recordings of these walking around to audibly demonstrate the uniformity of coverage or whatever sonic advantage you see to them ?   
“At the end of the day, I simply asked for clarification to a statement that seemed impossible for any speaker to achieve”
I understand your skepticism, that it is possible with a different and scientifically better approach is the reason for the reply.
Best,
Tom
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Tom Danley

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2015, 02:58:39 pm »

Tom, with the greatest respect and appreciation for your products and technical insights (and I am a Danley owner), you get more marketing on PSW out of Ivan's posts (and Mike's when he's here) than any other manufacturer gets away with.  I appreciate Ivan's forum contributions as well, but the "anyone who chooses a line array is an idiot" attitude as shown in Ivan's first post on this thread gets a little tiring.  I know you guys may not believe this, but there are actually a few instances when a non-Danley product is the right choice.

Thanks, it is with great reluctance i post here, same with Mike but when someone is asking about or discussion a product i designed, it seems like it's fair to respond and defend the approach. 
If any of us ever gave the impression i or we suggest it's the only solution then this was a misunderstanding. The only point is these work on a different acoustic principal and normally, the larger the system, the more difference that makes. 
Perhaps it would be better if Ivan also stopped posting here too as it seems to give the wrong impression, i will suggest that at our Monday meeting.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2015, 03:01:57 pm »

Thanks, it is with great reluctance i post here, same with Mike but when someone is asking about or discussion a product i designed, it seems like it's fair to respond and defend the approach. 
If any of us ever gave the impression i or we suggest it's the only solution then this was a misunderstanding. The only point is these work on a different acoustic principal and normally, the larger the system, the more difference that makes. 
Perhaps it would be better if Ivan also stopped posting here too as it seems to give the wrong impression, i will suggest that at our Monday meeting.
Tom, my intent is not to chase you away, as I learn things every time you post.  I do think Ivan stepped over the line in his first post on this thread.  I would suggest and hope that you both continue to participate - especially when people are asking direct questions about your products; however I think you guys can do that without the hyperbole.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2015, 03:12:05 pm »



Getting back to the OP, perhaps you could explain the technical and sonic up sides to the line array approach,

Ok, Am I being punked? 

Again...My question has nothing to do with line arrays.  It was for clarification on how Ivan said a horn could do what it could.  I never said any about how a line array could or could not perform, behave, dress or dance.    I am not a manufacturer of line arrays, I feel no need to defend them.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2015, 03:45:38 pm »

Getting back to the OP, perhaps you could explain the technical and sonic up sides to the line array approach, also without mentioning brands.
If you own a horn-style speaker that happens to have all of the right specs and features for the job du jour - weight, size, pattern, output etc., usually a single horn loaded box is better.  The downside is that you may need a large inventory of different size, shape, and output horn boxes to do a variety of situations, which may be an inventory problem.

The advantages of line array systems are their modularity.  I can own one model of box, and vary the deployment in lots of situations.  For permanent installs, this obviously doesn't apply.

The additional benefits of line arrays are that right or wrong, they're often what the customer wants, look cool, and you don't have to convince the "listen with their eyes" crowd that you've brought a reasonable system.

All that said, for most lounge users, a pair of SM80s over a TH-118 or two per side is most likely a better fit than a line array - certainly for anywhere close to the same amount of money.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2015, 03:48:20 pm »

Tom, my intent is not to chase you away, as I learn things every time you post.  I do think Ivan stepped over the line in his first post on this thread.  I would suggest and hope that you both continue to participate - especially when people are asking direct questions about your products; however I think you guys can do that without the hyperbole.
So what did I say in my first post that was incorrect?

It may not be what people like to hear-as it goes against their beliefs, but I don't feel there was anything technically wrong.

There is A LOT of misunderstand about line arrays that exist in our industry-mostly coming from people who do not own or use them and have just looked at the marketing.

As of this day-they do have their place (but that place is not where most of them are actually being used)-but they still exhibit everything I posted.

While I might have been a bit "sarcastic", that does not dilute any of my comments.

I guess that is the reason nobody has come here to say that anything I said was wrong-----------
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2015, 04:02:53 pm »

you get more marketing on PSW out of Ivan's posts (and Mike's when he's here) than any other manufacturer gets away with.  I appreciate Ivan's forum contributions as well, but the "anyone who chooses a line array is an idiot" attitude as shown in Ivan's first post on this thread gets a little tiring.

I have been in this industry a long time-and have been a regular poster here long before Danley Sound Labs even existed.

If you look back at old posts, you will see very similar posts to my current ones-and I was NOT an employee of any manufacturer.  Physics does not change with popularity.

I never mentioned anything about Danley-until it was brought up by other readers-and then it was in response to the question.

What is wrong with that?

Does that mean that I cannot have an opinion about amplifers-because we also sell them?

What about DSPs?

At least I can still talk about mics and wire :)

I never said that "anyone who chooses a line array is an idiot".

What I find funny -irritating and interesting about our industry is about the whole "line array craze".

I got a questionnaire from one of the trade magazines recently.

One of the questions was "In the next 6 months do you plan on purchasing A: Large format line array, B:Medium format line array, C: Small format line array, D: OTHER loudspeaker.

So now ALL OTHER loudspeakers are lumped together (studio monitors-ceiling speakers- point and shoot-floor wedges etc) and yet we divide out line arrays into 3 categories?

I guess that is what marketing does for you.

I know for a fact that the line array craze has been very good to loudspeaker driver manufacturers.  They get to sell a lot more drivers than they would have otherwise :)

So I am sure they have a very different opinion than mine on the whole "craze".
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2015, 04:05:06 pm »

So what did I say in my first post that was incorrect?

It may not be what people like to hear-as it goes against their beliefs, but I don't feel there was anything technically wrong.

There is A LOT of misunderstand about line arrays that exist in our industry-mostly coming from people who do not own or use them and have just looked at the marketing.

As of this day-they do have their place (but that place is not where most of them are actually being used)-but they still exhibit everything I posted.

While I might have been a bit "sarcastic", that does not dilute any of my comments.

I guess that is the reason nobody has come here to say that anything I said was wrong-----------
Other than partially admitting to your #1 point, I don't "want" any of the other things in your list, and yet a small format line array was the best business choice for me; and my system sounds great, too - in fact better than one particular Danley product I've heard.

If you don't get that your style of posting espousing the features of the products you represent in a way that's a little bit heavy handed, or maybe "passionate", to use a nicer word, then we'll have to agree to disagree.  Whether that is acceptable here or not is up to the moderators.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: When to use line array or not?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2015, 04:05:06 pm »


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