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Author Topic: Who buys TC Group?  (Read 20387 times)

Lee Richard

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Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2015, 04:33:22 am »

I would say that Bob has valid (although somewhat dramatically stated) concerns. I, like many others, have held a long-term dislike for all things Behringer - built upon experience. That said, I purchased an X32 when they were released and an X32Compact not long after with the thought that the most I could lose was the purchase price. It's now been almost 3 years with no failures. I'm quite happy with the X32 line in sound quality, flexibility, ROI, and surprisingly reliability. I am, however, looking forward to replacing the X32 with an M32 in the near future. I don't expect much, if any, improvement sonically, but the added piece of mind of more robust moving parts (faders, encoders, and buttons) is worth the price premium to me. Having the Midas brand on the case certainly won't hurt my business, either.

Using a DL251 with the m32 was a very noticeable improvement imho. It's a great combination.

Lee Buckalew

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Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2015, 06:44:10 am »

Dear Lee,
 
Thank you for your comment.
 
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, but since you addressed me directly, I would like to also engage with you directly.
 
I understand that people have their opinions and preferences and I do respect that. I also understand that some people donít like me or our company, and chose not to buy our products which I respect, too.
 
However it gets a little tricky, when accusations are made that are simply untrue as this is called libel. In this spirit would you mind telling me which Intellectual Property we have violated and which products we have been allegedly barred from selling and in which countries?
 
I like to thank all people here who comment in a measured and professional way; I am more than happy to reply to any questions in a factual and honest way. Perhaps this could result in a meaningful discussion.
 
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group

Uli
CEO
www.music-group.com

Uli,
First, I do not dislike you, I do not even know you.  I am fairly certain that I would enjoy having a conversation with you as I find that talking with people with whom I disagree often causes me to see things from a new perspective, one which I may not have considered nor fully appreciated previously.  It does not necessarily cause me to change my mind but does allow me to see things from a different perspective. 

If I recall correctly there was a case which Aphex brought against Behringer (late 90's) the outcome was for Aphex and against Behringer.  A number of subsequent cases I believe settled out of court.  One case, again if I recall correctly, in the U.S. with Peavey did find in Behringers favor stating something to the effect that a circuit board (or circuit board layout) could not be protected by copyright or patent.  I do not recall which (copyright or patent).  What I read of the case at the time was that there was no finding regarding products being copied, but that the legal requirement for patent, copyright, or trademark (again, I don't recall which) infringement had not been met.

Based on what I can find when searching now I retract and apologize for saying that Behringer was barred from providing certain equipment to certain countries due to intellectual property infringement.  I can not find that information when I search for it.  I do recall an FCC order/finding in the U.S. regarding compliance on a number of products.  If there was a time when this caused products to be barred entry perhaps that is what I was recalling.  I certainly wish to be accurate in statements that I make and again sincerely apologize for not being more careful in this regard.

Behringer certainly has increased its QC to among the best in the industry.  In my experience Midas products have had an increase in their conformity/consistency unit to unit.  I can not speak to other MG brands as I have not had any dealings with them since the MG purchase.  Over the last few years in particular Behringer and MG have caused the industry as a whole to rethink their approach to various market segments.  Behringer/MG now builds some of the best made equipment in the industry.  This does not, for me, change my opinion about my purchasing from Behringer.  Based upon their past practices as I have seen them and been told about them, whether legal or not, I have chosen to not support them.  Perhaps you can change my mind and share information of which I was not previously aware.

Lee
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 08:07:32 am by Lee Buckalew »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2015, 09:42:52 am »

Dear Lee,
 
Thank you for your comment.
 
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, but since you addressed me directly, I would like to also engage with you directly.
 
I understand that people have their opinions and preferences and I do respect that. I also understand that some people donít like me or our company, and chose not to buy our products which I respect, too.
 
However it gets a little tricky, when accusations are made that are simply untrue as this is called libel. In this spirit would you mind telling me which Intellectual Property we have violated and which products we have been allegedly barred from selling and in which countries?
 
I like to thank all people here who comment in a measured and professional way; I am more than happy to reply to any questions in a factual and honest way. Perhaps this could result in a meaningful discussion.
 
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group
CEO
www.music-group.com
Uli,

It is apparent that you have successfully navigated the legal issues (either in court or out) to be able to sell your products, even though some of them, other than a different color scheme, are externally identical to other manufacturer's products (see the Ebtech Swizz Army cable tester as an example).  Whatever moral repugnancy that may evoke in some people is in the heart of the beholder.

For me, this is relatively water under the bridge, as in most cases these products became obsolete due to ubiquitous digital mixers pretty much replacing all other audio hardware, and I won't be buying them - Behringer or other - anyway.

That all said, I find myself actually interested in a couple Behringer products - the X-Touch Compact and the Motor-series keyboards.  If you ever plan to ship these (16 months and counting from announcement), let me know. 
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2015, 11:02:55 am »

I apologize if I am repeating myself but there are multiple threads about this  topic in different forums. In my judgement any questionable use of other's IP is both ancient history and a matter of subjective opinion as most high profile cases have been litigated and closed.

I have no doubt about my handful of personal experiences, but only one involved protected IP and Peavey did not win that case in court, so they get to say they did not break the law. I am more than willing to let sleeping dogs lie.

In my judgement Behringer has evolved past the point where there is  much opportunity to copy others, so this is old news and not germane to evaluating the corporation today.

JR

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2015, 11:33:32 am »

So the thread title is now "Who buys TC Group".

I think it's lovely that Roger Daltry and Pete Townsend have found a new enterprise....

/satire
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2015, 11:35:52 am »

So the thread title is now "Who buys TC Group".

I think it's lovely that Roger Daltry and Pete Townsend have found a new enterprise....

/satire

Better than "Yamaha buys TC Group" which is misleading and has nothing to do with the thread that developed. And I wish Roger and Pete all the best.

Mac
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2015, 11:37:06 am »

Better than "Yamaha buys TC Group" which is misleading and has nothing to do with the thread that developed. And I wish Roger and Pete all the best.

Mac

Not complaining, Mac.  I rather like the concept of rock icons purchasing an iconic manufacturer/distributor.  Oh well.
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Steve Payne

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2015, 11:47:38 am »

Not complaining, Mac.  I rather like the concept of rock icons purchasing an iconic manufacturer/distributor.  Oh well.

Now that would be a recipe for disaster!   :P
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2015, 11:50:44 am »

Uli,

How nice of you to pop in and express your concerns. I extend my greeting and hand shake. Nice to meet you.

Many of us, myself included, have been associated with professional sound and the music business for decades, myself for just over 50 years. During that period of time anyone following the history of your company could not help but take note of periods in time where your company had been accused, right or wrong, of using another company's design(s).

There are also products manufactured by your company which are very similar in layout and appearance to other manufacturers products, in some cases so similar as to create confusion and speculation as to the origin or design. Perhaps this was not done with intent, or perhaps in a land where there are no copyright laws, China for example, the design of a product showing a similarity to a known and copyright protected product was not a consideration. And please keep in mind that not only can appearances be deceiving, but that in our world today, most books are judged by their covers.

I don't see where any company on the face of this planet can compete without stepping on someone's toes. It just doesn't happen. Yes, there are instances as stated above, none of which I have fully researched, or will I research. However, those instances and associated innuendo concerning your company, combined with past product quality, has put a cover on your book. Jokingly, I would think that if your book were to be put in a library 5-10 years ago it may end up in the horror section. Today I would say you might find your book in with the rest of the books titled "How to make your business better, but with difficulty".

I'll have to say that what you have done with your company is nothing short of amazing, and I congratulate you on your success. But I think you need to understand the mind set of the people who dislike or do not trust your brand before you can take the next step forward.

I'll use my own experiences here, and not cloud this part of my response with "He said, she said" unproven facts. There was a time when I purchased your products with certain speculation. The brand was new and not well known. I found these initial offerings to be of good quality, sonically capable and functional. In other words, good but average products priced where they should be priced. I would use these products in installations or for personal use, and even recommend your products to others if the product fit the need and was a solution.

Fast forward Uli and your products began to fail me. Not once, not twice, but on a constant basis. Service was very hard to obtain and your products were relegated to a disposable status. I was burned many times by failures at the most inopportune times and lost faith in your products. I then moved to buying your products from Ebay at the lowest price I could find, then using those components for test purposes, demo purposes, etc., finally disposing of them, or selling them on Ebay, once a theory or test had been proved or disproved. Eventually I crossed your product off of my list, never to own or want to own a Behringer product again. When asked my opinion was what you can imagine, and that was that.

Let's move to today.

When you introduced the X32 I sat up straight in my chair and took notice. However, I couldn't get the taste of Behringer past out of my mouth. I felt, and with just reason, that as good as the product appeared to be, I would soon find the product to be an issue at some point in time, probably at the worst time. I had been burned in the past and was not willing to take the risk again, not with a critical component.

At the time I was using APB products, which IMO are superior sonically to many products available even today. The quality of the sound is my primary concern. I wrote an email and sent it to your powers to be requesting a demo of the X32. My full and honest intent was to properly evaluate the board, and then uncover the components for a hard look at the internal quality and workmanship. I could have been won over to your cause, or lost forever. However, none of my requests were answered and I have never received a reply from any of your people. Now, I don't profess to being an important person, but I was a person who was sincere with my request, and even to my surprise, people still come to me for suggestions and advice. Maybe because I'm old and they humor me, who knows.

In the end Uli, I waited for over a year to make my decision on what would be my first move to an entirely digital world. By that time I had still not heard from your people and my final decision, based on sound quality, was to purchase a Soundcraft board.

I commend you on your expressed desire to provide quality sound products, however, I would suggest that one service center and cross shipping may be fine for many people, but it will seldom be a solution for many professionals. Time is money, and the secure feeling of knowing a regional service center is within driving distance, or that knowing a support rep is available 7/24/365 is critical to the purchase decision process, IMO.

Your final step in the transition should be apparent. You have been honest, and I will be honest in stating that the past has left a blemish on your reputation, deserved or not. This is not a perception that can be eradicated with the purchase of high end sound product manufacturers. The perception will be that those newly acquired products will now be manufactured to a lower standard, or that lesser quality components will be used.

You have made great strides within the industry to show the world Behringer is not a throw away product, that your product is top quality, and that you are a name that can be trusted. But for many of us, the jury is still out and ignoring inquiring minds will not help with our perceptions. Your next step now should be to differentiate your high and acquisitions from your MI and entry level offerings. Advertising that the X32 has a Midas designed pre amp may be fine sales speak, but to those who have time in the industry that means little or nothing. It may even mean that you've used the design utilizing lower cost components, and if I don't like the X32 pre amps, I won't like a Midas pre amp either. In my opinion, if you want a chunk of the professional industry, which is not where your profits come from now, and I understand that, you will need to separate by name, that portion of the products catering to that portion of your sales. Much like any company that sells across all markets you might think of differentiating between MI and pro. Perhaps a different logo and the words "UB professional division", and professional division service centers located regionally. Then use the best components available, regardless of origin, raise the price a bit based on those components and support, and the world will be within reach.

A glowing example would be a Radial DI that I purchased this week for a specific purpose. Your products never entered into the purchasing process along with several other budget priced DI's. I spent $800 on the Radial because of the quality, because of the Jensen transformers, because I had support, because of their design and unique features, and because I perceive the name Radial to be a manufacturer of professional level quality product that won't let me down.

Maybe my opinion will change as your company embraces quality and support, but that's not a question I can answer at this time. What I can say is that people like myself and Lee are left with a perception that will be very hard to change. And although this perception is based on much innuendo, finger pointing, and mistruths, there are certain facts which can not be denied. Perhaps in my case I was an unlucky individual, or maybe I wasn't. I can't say one way or the other, and I can only base my opinions on past experience, leaving me unwilling to embrace Behringer.

As an individual I admire your business savvy and wish you luck now and in the future. Please do not be offended by my honesty as I mean no harm, and let me know if you ever establish a professional division as that may change my mind.

Bob Leonard

Boston, MA
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Who buys TC Group?
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2015, 11:51:04 am »

Not complaining, Mac.  I rather like the concept of rock icons purchasing an iconic manufacturer/distributor.  Oh well.

Like Peter Gabriel and SSL?

Mac
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Re: Who buys TC Group?
¬ę Reply #49 on: April 29, 2015, 11:51:04 am ¬Ľ


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