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[Mark McFarlane]

The Dugan and the Shure SCM810 automixers can also have more then one mic on at a time, and as most automixers they can have every mic on. I don’t know what is different about the A&H algorithm, I haven’t checked it out yet. I am just warning you of what to be careful of with automixers in general.
...

From your previous statement about a duet, saying the automixer you used would turn off one of the two mics mic, I inferred that it only allowed one on.  My bad.

I shall be careful

[John Roberts {JR}]

From your previous statement about a duet, saying the automixer you used would turn off one of the two mics mic, I inferred that it only allowed one on.  My bad.

I shall be careful

[TMI=too much info]
Automatic mixers are a mature technology several decades old. Historically there were two basic technologies (more or less).

The Dugan approach that many favor (like me) involves a proportional gain sharing, that doesn't turn mics on or off per se, but varies the gain proportionately based on how loud each channel is, compared to the sum of all channels. This will very accurately give one talker most of the gain, or allow a duet to share the gain equally. In fact the Dugan algorithm can tell the difference between one singer picked up by two mics (coherent) or two different singers (incoherent).  The quiet channels get even less gain so are effectively ducked. A very elegant algorithm but not trivial to execute using analog technology. In my AM design for Peavey I had to perform log conversions in each input channel to compute DB levels to send to a VCA to ration gain per channel. So not cheap but from Peavey not expensive.

The Shure and similar approaches use temporal cues, like first, loudest sound to selectively turn on that one mic and gate off the others. Of course, over the decades they have enhanced the performance using other sound characteristics.

In the early days of AM Dan Dugan held a patent for his approach that he licensed to Altec Lansing to make their relatively expensive and exotic product.  Under Altec the market size was modest due to cost. Later Dan engineered his own digital version that had more features and was superior to the old analog Altec (but even more expensive). During this time Shure developed their approach as a cheaper alternate technology that did not infringe on Dan's patent(s). Dan's patent has long expired but legacy manufacturers have momentum and investment in their legacy approaches.

When I looked into AM design (late 1990s), Dan's patent was within one year of expiring, and my review of the alternate approaches led me to wait a few months and copy the best (I'm not proud of that, but not a fool.  ) Of course I used Peavey's manufacturing muscle to deliver a premium approach at a value price, but that was last century and many didn't take it seriously because of the brand.

Fast forward to now, I have long predicted that AM would become a free option inside digital consoles and finally I can move that out of my crystal ball and into the actual technology domain. The modern digital technology allows both Dugan and non-dugan approaches to be vastly enhanced with almost zero incremental manufacturing cost, just some NRE.

I have no idea about the GLD implementation but do not disagree with their offering more than one flavor (As I recall even Media Matrix offered two flavors, decades ago). I hope Dan is getting more than name recognition for using his name, while his algorithm is public domain and has been for decades.    [/TMI]

==========
Mark: if you are still nervous perhaps contact the console maker. The engineer who did the AM implementation should have some advice, but unless they screwed up, which I don't expect, the AM should work as advertised (an invisible hand pushing sliders for you).

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

JR

   

[Rob Spence]

Mark, you mentioned a limit of 8 ganged mutes? Did they implement mute groups when I wasn't looking?

What I have done is take a few DCAs and assign a soft key to their mute. I then just assign channels to the DCA for muting. After configuration is done, you can remove the DCAs from surface slots.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Mark McFarlane]

Hi Rob, I just used GLD's standard "ganging" feature (the button above Setup).

There are 8 ganging groups.  For each group you can select which input channels you want to gang together, and which processors you want ganged, e.g. to create a stereo channel, gang together two mono channels and select to gang all processors (EQ, HPF, trim, gate, mute, delay, comp,...) except pan and routing.  I just used 8 of these to only gang mutes between 2 channels.  In doing so I had to 'give up' two of my standard stereo gangs, for the USB play back and a computer connection.

So yes, you could use ganging to create mute groups, without using up a softkey. Hit mute on one channel and all ganged channels will be muted.  One limitation in gangs is that input channels can only being to single gang group.   

I also use soft keys for my two standard mute groups: to mute all inputs and to mute all outputs.  Its awesome to hit 'mute all inputs' and walk away from the console.

[Rob Spence]

Hi Rob, I just used GLD's standard "ganging" feature (the button above Setup).

There are 8 ganging groups.  For each group you can select which input channels you want to gang together, and which processors you want ganged, e.g. to create a stereo channel, gang together two mono channels and select to gang all processors (EQ, HPF, trim, gate, mute, delay, comp,...) except pan and routing.  I just used 8 of these to only gang mutes between 2 channels.  In doing so I had to 'give up' two of my standard stereo gangs, for the USB play back and a computer connection.

So yes, you could use ganging to create mute groups, without using up a softkey. Hit mute on one channel and all ganged channels will be muted.  One limitation in gangs is that input channels can only being to single gang group.   

I also use soft keys for my two standard mute groups: to mute all inputs and to mute all outputs.  Its awesome to hit 'mute all inputs' and walk away from the console.

I run all the "band" inputs to a stereo group and put the group mute on a soft key.
I put all the monitor mix masters in a DCA group, leave the DCA master at 0 and put the mute on a soft key.
That gives me a button to mute the band in the house and a button to mute all the monitors. This lets me mute the band but still set monitor levels. I have the playback channels to another group like the band. Three mute buttons to control all.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Mark McFarlane]

I run all the "band" inputs to a stereo group and put the group mute on a soft key.
I put all the monitor mix masters in a DCA group, leave the DCA master at 0 and put the mute on a soft key.
That gives me a button to mute the band in the house and a button to mute all the monitors. This lets me mute the band but still set monitor levels. I have the playback channels to another group like the band. Three mute buttons to control all.

Good idea, thanks.

[Kevin Maxwell]

Good idea, thanks.

How did the musical go? Is it all over?

Did this impact your recovery from your surgery?

[Mark McFarlane]

How did the musical go? Is it all over?

Did this impact your recovery from your surgery?

The musical is over and I am exhausted. 

The AMM worked fine set to 'best mic on' and -10db of attenuation for unused mics. I ended up with 14 live wireless mics on stage and didn't have any problems, other than a few costume problems and one scene where there was a rapid dialog exchange between 8 or 9 cast members while the band was playing.  I never got that one 60 second segment right. The show was loud enough (could have been tad louder, but loud enough) without any feedback problems (but always on the edge). I ended up using 2 mains and 2 60 degree center fills. Coverage in the audience was adequate but not perfect, I had a few lower volume zones. I ditched the talk/sing bus during dress and went with a single vocal bus with all vocal mics running through AMM.  The pit band was all adults, and awesome.

Some of the costume changes were really fast and the actors didn't always get their mics outside the costume. I kept running back stage during the interval to remind them. Had one actress who wore a head scarf and I had to have her reposition the mic to the opposite side to keep the scarf from moving back and forth over the mic element, which wreaked havoc with the tonality of her dialog and singing.  I didn't get this one figured out until show 3 of 3. I first thought it was a physical mic problem, then I thought her mic was below her costume,...  I need to take binoculars next time to check out the costumes and mic placement.

Still, with only 2 techs, a dress that turned into a partial show rehearsal, and 3 shows, it went fine. The first show was the first time I actually saw the flow.  You could clearly hear all the dialog (except for a few kids that mumbled and/or talked way too fast) and you could hear the lyrics.  It came out better than I had expected. I had the show nailed by the third and final performance.

The surgery was for hydrocele testes. For the first 2 weeks (before the show) it felt like someone just kicked me in the nuts a minute ago. Week 3 was show week, and it was pretty uncomfortable, but I was able to trip jumping up on the stage (in a hurry to fix a mic placement problem during a brief hold in dress) and took a chunk of skin off my shin, so that helped mask the other pain .  I had to sit on the edge of the stage for 5 minutes before I could walk.  Surgery made the gig really uncomfortable, but I brought my own really nice chair and had lots of help loading in and packing out.  The show must go on and all that. Got paid, got a nice unexpected bonus, and luckily I had the entire week off my day job, so a long hot bath at the end of each day and narcotics made it tolerable.

It has been ~ 8 years since my last musical, and it may be 8 more years before the next one.  For those who haven't worked theatre, a musical requires the mental intensity of a day long 10-band music festival, every day, day after day,... I have great appreciation for the folks who live in this world.  Luckily this gig only lasted 5 days.  I had to set up and tear down FOH each day  (multi-use facility), which was a PITA and added a few extra hours to each day.

I'm off on my next adventure.  Had a band in the studio yesterday I have to mix, and prepare for a festival on Friday.


How many weeks does it take before all of the show songs leave your brain?

[Kevin Maxwell]

The musical is over and I am exhausted. 

The AMM worked fine set to 'best mic on' and -10db of attenuation for unused mics. I ended up with 14 live wireless mics on stage and didn't have any problems, other than a few costume problems and one scene where there was a rapid dialog exchange between 8 or 9 cast members while the band was playing.  I never got that one 60 second segment right. The show was loud enough (could have been tad louder, but loud enough) without any feedback problems (but always on the edge). I ended up using 2 mains and 2 60 degree center fills. Coverage in the audience was adequate but not perfect, I had a few lower volume zones. I ditched the talk/sing bus during dress and went with a single vocal bus with all vocal mics running through AMM.  The pit band was all adults, and awesome.

Some of the costume changes were really fast and the actors didn't always get their mics outside the costume. I kept running back stage during the interval to remind them. Had one actress who wore a head scarf and I had to have her reposition the mic to the opposite side to keep the scarf from moving back and forth over the mic element, which wreaked havoc with the tonality of her dialog and singing.  I didn't get this one figured out until show 3 of 3. I first thought it was a physical mic problem, then I thought her mic was below her costume,...  I need to take binoculars next time to check out the costumes and mic placement.

Still, with only 2 techs, a dress that turned into a partial show rehearsal, and 3 shows, it went fine. The first show was the first time I actually saw the flow.  You could clearly hear all the dialog (except for a few kids that mumbled and/or talked way too fast) and you could hear the lyrics.  It came out better than I had expected. I had the show nailed by the third and final performance.

The surgery was for hydrocele testes. For the first 2 weeks (before the show) it felt like someone just kicked me in the nuts a minute ago. Week 3 was show week, and it was pretty uncomfortable, but I was able to trip jumping up on the stage (in a hurry to fix a mic placement problem during a brief hold in dress) and took a chunk of skin off my shin, so that helped mask the other pain .  I had to sit on the edge of the stage for 5 minutes before I could walk.  Surgery made the gig really uncomfortable, but I brought my own really nice chair and had lots of help loading in and packing out.  The show must go on and all that. Got paid, got a nice unexpected bonus, and luckily I had the entire week off my day job, so a long hot bath at the end of each day and narcotics made it tolerable.

It has been ~ 8 years since my last musical, and it may be 8 more years before the next one.  For those who haven't worked theatre, a musical requires the mental intensity of a day long 10-band music festival, every day, day after day,... I have great appreciation for the folks who live in this world.  Luckily this gig only lasted 5 days.  I had to set up and tear down FOH each day  (multi-use facility), which was a PITA and added a few extra hours to each day.

I'm off on my next adventure.  Had a band in the studio yesterday I have to mix, and prepare for a festival on Friday.


How many weeks does it take before all of the show songs leave your brain?

I am glade things went well of you but I am cringing at imagining the pain you had to deal with.

The show tunes may never leave your brain. Actually I have found that I need to listen to stuff I really like in the car for a while before I sufficiently purge the constant repetition of the show tunes from my brain. And the worse part is it isn’t usually the songs that you like from the show that stick in your head it is the stupid little repetitive songs. I usually find I would go to sleep with these songs running thru my head for a few weeks. If it goes much longer then that you may need to seek professional help. 

[John Roberts {JR}]

Good job...

The modern, next generation AM using smart digital technology, when properly designed, can anticipate most typical mix decisions.

Glad to hear it worked out, and you are recovering from your case of tender balls.

JR

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