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[Craig Leerman]

soundpad

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Thanks
Craig

[Kent Clasen]

Nothing scientific, just from a "weekender" perspective.

There's a playlist from Yamaha detailing the features of the board, though Andy's enthusiasm scares me.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3rjqgoqj7LJLzdKlbYWrjmEzKQiPAHm7

I did a quick <90sec video overview for those interested. It has a few quirks for sure, some ppl may or may not like. Pro/con the UI is NOT like LS/M7/QL/CL so you have to think differently. I found it easy after going through a typical setup- it has some newbie type features- some handy/quick=libraries/naming, some defeatable=1 knob, mixed with some more pro=DCA spill/custom layer, TF1 can mix 32 mono inputs.  Soon every mixer will have a touch screen- swiping and tapping is much easier than finding a knob.

http://www.msmsystemsinc.com/new/2015/6/6/yamaha-tf-mixer-review-90-secs.html

Full disclosure, we are a dealer, but also for most every other digi mixer...

[Rob Spence]

I have been unable to find a document that describes the various libraries.
I need to know if ducking is included and also about the capabilities of side chains.

For example, on the LS9, there is ducking but you can only select a subset of the buses for the side chain.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Jeff Foster]

I'm finding that pretty much all the negative towards this mixer is from people who have never touched one, or even bothered to watch the videos about how it works.  There are so many comments about how people don't like the one-knob stuff, but those people don't seem to realize that the one knob is defeatable and you can have full control over all EQ and Dynamics parameters just like on any other console.  The one knob is an option; not the rule.

Further, I have talked to people that thought the mixer wasn't "good enough" or just didn't like it, and then completely changed their mind once they actually played with one for a few minutes.  Admittedly, I had some concerns initially, but after downloading ad playing with the PC editor, I found that this mixer is actually pretty incredible.  The swipe motions are very natural for anyone who has ever used a smartphone or tablet.  There are a few features that it is missing* that you'd have to step up a level or two to get, but honestly Yamaha made a pretty nice mixer at an amazing price point.  Those features would be pretty rarely used at this level of customer anyway.

Soon every mixer will have a touch screen- swiping and tapping is much easier than finding a knob.

This is my view as well.  I think this is just the beginning and we will see this type of touchscreen interface becoming more and more common.  We're already seeing it in some small surfaceless mixers, but I think it's going to become more prevalent, even in the large format stuff.  The large format stuff may retain more physical controls for those who prefer that option, but the touch screen swipe style interface will be there too.  The smaller stuff will continue to go to more screen centered mixing with fewer physical controls.  (Though I don't want to go completely faderless, myself).

*Things like matrices, output delays, and soft patching inputs, for example.

[Jeff Foster]

I have been unable to find a document that describes the various libraries.
I need to know if ducking is included and also about the capabilities of side chains.

Rob, I don't remember seeing anything like that in the PC editor.  You can download it for free from yamaha if you want to play with the console settings without actually having a console.

Edit to add:  Just checked, I don't see any side chain options on the dynamics for any of the input channels or output buses.

[Rob Spence]

I'm finding that pretty much all the negative towards this mixer is from people who have never touched one, or even bothered to watch the videos about how it works.  There are so many comments about how people don't like the one-knob stuff, but those people don't seem to realize that the one knob is defeatable and you can have full control over all EQ and Dynamics parameters just like on any other console.  The one knob is an option; not the rule.

Further, I have talked to people that thought the mixer wasn't "good enough" or just didn't like it, and then completely changed their mind once they actually played with one for a few minutes.  Admittedly, I had some concerns initially, but after downloading ad playing with the PC editor, I found that this mixer is actually pretty incredible.  The swipe motions are very natural for anyone who has ever used a smartphone or tablet.  There are a few features that it is missing* that you'd have to step up a level or two to get, but honestly Yamaha made a pretty nice mixer at an amazing price point.  Those features would be pretty rarely used at this level of customer anyway.

This is my view as well.  I think this is just the beginning and we will see this type of touchscreen interface becoming more and more common.  We're already seeing it in some small surfaceless mixers, but I think it's going to become more prevalent, even in the large format stuff.  The large format stuff may retain more physical controls for those who prefer that option, but the touch screen swipe style interface will be there too.  The smaller stuff will continue to go to more screen centered mixing with fewer physical controls.  (Though I don't want to go completely faderless, myself).

*Things like matrices, output delays, and soft patching inputs, for example.

My concerns with the one knob are that you cannot look at the stage while adjusting. Actually the LS9 kinda has that too in that you only have 3 knobs and must select the frequency band.

Another is seeing the display and indicators while outside. You must see it to make changes.

Lastly, touch screens (including this iPad) are a pain if your hand starts sweating in hot weather.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Jeff Foster]

My concerns with the one knob are that you cannot look at the stage while adjusting. Actually the LS9 kinda has that too in that you only have 3 knobs and must select the frequency band.

I get that.  You also have the User defined knobs which can be set to EQ Gain, Freq, and Q thereby having similar controls to the LS9 or QL series.

Another is seeing the display and indicators while outside. You must see it to make changes.

Lastly, touch screens (including this iPad) are a pain if your hand starts sweating in hot weather.

Totally agree with both those observations.  The LEDs and displays were very bright when I played with one in the store.  They were brighter than I expected.  Though sunlight is always a challenge no matter how bright the indicators are.

[Kent Clasen]

Obviously these are very new, but does any mfg have cases yet? I need something lightweight for our TF1. I haven't been able to find any.

[Jeff Foster]

Okay.  I just took delivery of my new TF3 yesterday.  After playing with it at the house for a couple of hours I have a few initial observations.  Overall, I am very impressed.  This is a great little console and I am eager to use it in the real world.

The preamps sound just fine.  No complaints.  They may even sound better than the preamps in the M7, but until I get some real world mixing on this thing, I don't want to say that for certain.  The stuff I played through them at home sounded very warm and musical instead of the cold, sterile sound I expected form a budget digital mixer.
[Edit 08/14/2015: To add to this, I have since learned that the D-Pre preamps are the same preamps that Steinberg uses in their UR series of recording interfaces.  These preamps are very good and hold their own against any other similarly priced preamp.  These D-Pre preamps are arguably better quality than you'll find in most other budget live sound consoles.
Yamaha is also using these D-Pre preamps in the 3rd gen MG series, however contrary to popular internet opinion, these are NOT the same preamps as previous MG models.  These are much, much better.
I would also add that I continue to find the sound of this console much better than the Ls9 and M7 series, though I know there is likely much more to that than just the preamp itself.]

The touch screen is very responsive.  Changing parameters had no discernible delay.  The layer change buttons do have a delay though.  There is probably a half second delay between hitting the layer change button and when the faders actually change.  Not a big deal, but something I noticed. [ETA: The layer changes between inputs, outputs, and groups are nearly instant.  Layer changes between auxes do exhibit a pause between them.]

The PC editor had more weirdness than I expected.   First, it wouldn't even see the mixer on the network until I realized that you have to actually select which network card you want to use in the software.  My laptop has wired and wireless available, and the editor wouldn't work on whichever was active.  It actually need to be told which one to use.  Secondly, the meters in the editor are practically unusable.  The response is so slow that it might as well not even have them.  I'll try again with a wired connection, but my wireless is MIMO N and plenty fast, so I doubt the wire will make them much faster.

The USB driver seems pretty stable.  No issues connecting to the computer and no crashes.  I was easily able to get audio to/from Waves Tracks Live, as well as Cubase.

The scribble strips... Most of the colors were fine, but there are a couple of colors that are very, very similar.  The yellow and orange are nearly impossible to tell apart, as are the blue and the cyan.  The scribble strips themselves are very easy to read and I'm impressed that you can actually see the status of the gates and comps on the little LCD for each channel.  There's a good bit of info on each LCD, yet it's all very legible and easy to see.

I would like more options for the UDKs.  It's nice having the buttons and knobs, but they seem limited in what they can do.  The most useful stuff (to me) is snapshot controls for the buttons, and gain/EQ parameters for the knobs.  I'd like to have options to control an aux master level from a knob or have a button assigned to select and bring a specific channel's overview to the screen.

As to the main functions of the mixer.  There really isn't much to say.  It's a mixer.  It has all the features you'd expect on a digital mixer currently.  The addition of the presets and one-knob stuff is a time saver, but I can't say if I'll use much of that or keep it in normal mode instead until I get it out in the field.  I will say that the interface is the most un-Yamaha like that I've ever seen on a Yamaha (if that makes sense).  That's a good thing to me.  I never liked the interface on the M7 or LS9.

In the end, I'm very impressed.  It's a good little mixer and I am looking forward to getting the Dante card and the stage boxes.  Now I just need to find a road case.....

[Jeff Foster]

Thought I'd post an update now that I've had more time to play with it.  There are a few more things I noticed; some good, some bad.

Brightness:  The brightness for the screen, panel LEDs, Scribble strips, and color band (under the scribble strips) can all be adjusted separately.  Yamaha even included two "banks" where you can save different settings for each.  For example, Bank A could be set to fully bright for outdoor gigs, while Bank B can be customized for darker, indoor gigs.  One really cool thing I found is that the panel setting turns on ALL the LEDs if it is set to 9 or below.  All the LEDs are on, but at their lowest setting.  Selected/active LEDs are still noticeably brighter.  I guess this is how they overcome the lack of a lamp connector.  If you have a Steinberg CMC controller, you should be familiar with this type of thing since those controllers also have an option to turn on all the LEDs for dim rooms.

Snapshots: The snapshots recall instantly.  I didnt detect any noticeable lag from pressing the recall button to when the new settings took effect.  This is good.  However, the faders and other panel settings take a full second to change.  So while the new snapshot is running, the settings won't be reflected immediately.  I can live with this.  I'd rather everything be instant, but at least the settings are instant.  This is still WAY better than the delay on the Mackie TT24 where you could count to three before anything happened when changing snapshots.

PC editor:  Meters are slow and pretty much unusable over WiFi.  They are mildly better when using a wired connection.
The PC editor only follows the console in some aspects.  It seems a bit bipolar.  Like it wants to play along, but just can't.  For example, say you have snapshot 1 running on the console and the PC editor also shows snapshot 1.  Then you recall snapshot 2 on the console.  The PC editor still shows snapshot one at the top, though it is now blinking.  The other settings (fader levels, etc) do follow the console though.   So you could glance at the computer and think your snapshots are messed up or that you have the wrong one active.  I'm fairly certain that the same thing happens in reverse.  If you recall a snapshot on the PC, then the console still shows the previous snapshot. (I'd have to double check that to be certain).
Also, the selected channel will follow the console, but won't actually show the detail screens.  For example, if I select channel one, then tap on the console to bring up the gain finder, it will show on the console, but all the PC editor gets is the highlight around strip 1.  If you then try to edit another channel on the PC editor, the selected channel changes on the console.  Again, it's like it wants to play along, but isn't quite able to.  There is an option in the editor to "unlink" the channel select, but like I said, it only seems half linked to begin with.  Guess I'll be keeping it unlinked all the time.
Even when the console is connected, some of the settings are still unavailable such as user preferences and the brightness controls.

RTA:  Apparently, there is an RTA visible when editing any of the graphic EQs on the outputs.  It will show right underneath the graphic EQ itself.  However, there is no RTA for any of the parametric EQ's.  This is odd, because it seems to me it would be more useful to have an RTA on the channel EQ to make it easier for newbies to find and notch out feedback.
[Edit 06/25 to add:  Thanks to Kent Clasen for pointing out to me that there is an RTA available on every EQ screen.  To access, tap the bottom half of any EQ screen in an area that doesn't contain a filter.  i.e. tap somewhere empty.  That will then cycle through three displays - nothing (default), an RTA, and a piano graphic.  The RTA uses the bottom half of the EQ screen, but in actuality, it's really just the bottom quarter.  Since it appears the RTA graph roughly corresponds to the same DB scale on the bottom half of the EQ graph, 0dBFS would be at the 0 mark on the graph.  -10dBFS would be at -10 on the graph and so on.  Since the gain finder pretty much tells you to put your peaks at -20dBFS, that means the RTA is only on the very bottom of the EQ graph.  It is also faded as it approaches the bottom of the screen, so the combination of running so low on the screen and the faded bars makes it really hard to see.  Still, at least it is there.  ...and I checked, the RTA and piano scale displays are not listed in any of the documentation from Yamaha]

General:  I know that Yamaha likes these 8 channel overview screens on their digital consoles, but I always find them annoying and just in the way.  This console is no different.  When you select a channel, it goes to that 8-channel bank on the screen and then you still have to tap something in the channel strip to see the details.  When I press a channel's select button, I want to see details of that channel.  Give me the full channel overview.  I really don't care what the 7 channels next to it are doing.  When I hit that select button, it's because I need to focus on something on that channel.  I'd rather there be an option somewhere to just turn off the 8-channel overview, and use the 'home' button to take me to the channel overview for the currently selected channel.  If you're already in a channel's detail screen and then select another channel, thankfully it doesn't dump you out to the 8 channel overview, and will stay on the corresponding page while now showing the newly selected channel.  i.e. if on the EQ screen for channel 2, when you press the select button on channel 3, it now shows the EQ for channel 3.
In fairness, I've had this complaint about all the M7's and LS9's that I've used too.

Auxes:  Yamaha math. [sigh].  There are not 20 auxes.  There are 14... 8 mono and 6 stereo.  The 8 mono auxes can be linked to create additional stereo auxes if desired.  This linking is per aux pair, so you could use 2 mono auxes as another stereo aux, or all 8 mono auxes as 4 more stereo auxes, or any combination you desire.  The Flexibility is nice.
The 6 stereo auxes can also be repurposed as stereo subgroups and routed back to the main mix.  The 8 mono auxes cannot be routed back to the main mix.  This allows the stereo auxes to function as subgroups, or additional effects sends when using any of the insertable effects units.  All auxes can be set pre/post fader per channel.  In the aux master overview, there is a shortcut to make that aux all-pre or all-post.
There is an additional Sub bus that is set up just like an aux fed sub, but doesn't tie up any of the other 14 auxes.  I suppose a creative person could use it as a 9th mono aux send if they so chose.

Channel colors:  You can customize the channel colors to any of 8 colors (plus off).  This includes all of the outputs.  However, the presets include a particular color scheme and there is no way to change the colors for the different preset types.  If you use the presets, you'll need to get used to Yamaha's color scheme, or plan on changing a lot of colors.
The master bus will change color when in sends on fader mode.  The color will be whatever you have selected for that output bus.

Sends on faders: Typical sends on faders.  Just a couple things to note.  There is no master scribble strip.  Just an LED that lights under the plastic to show "Master" when in sends on fader mode.
ALL the channel select buttons light up when in sends on fader mode.  The selected channel now blinks.  The scribble strip also changes to read "send to Aux *" or something like that.  It's pretty hard to not realize you're in sends on fader mode with this board.

Faders:  They feel decent.  They're obviously not super expensive, but they feel smooth and have a fair amount of resistance.  The fader caps are plastic, and a fairly cheap plastic too.  The contour is reasonably comfortable though.  Oddly, the sides of the fader caps are cut in.  I suppose this helps you see the screen printing beneath the fader.  That isn't really necessary since the scribble strip shows the level during adjustments. 

Scribble strips: As I mentioned in my last comment, the scribble strips show a lot of information.  They are one of the best, if not the best scribble strip I've ever seen because of the info displayed and how legible it is.

Build:  The console itself feels solid and has all metal panels, except for the sides.  The sides are plastic and don't feel like they will stand up to much road abuse.  Hopefully someone will come out with a case for these consoles soon.

[Edit 06/25 to add:  Reading back through, there is one BIG thing that you should be aware of when considering this console.  I thought I had previously mentioned it, but apparently not.  Channels 33-40 are NOT full channels.  They have only 2 bands of parametric EQ and NO dynamics at all.  While Yamaha bills this as having 40 channels plus stereo, only the first 32 channels on the TF3/TF5 are full strips.  Granted, it is still nice to have those extra 8 inputs as long as you are aware of their limitations.  These channels can work fine for things like music playback, outboard effects returns, USB playback from DAW and so on.  The TF1 does not have this issue because it only has 32 mic channels plus the stereo and EFX.]

I still really like this console.  I know I may sound like I don't, but I'm just trying to point out all the nitpicky stuff that I've noticed since I'm sure the upcoming magazine reviews will be typical "rainbows and roses" stuff because no one ever seems to want to write an honest review nowadays.  Still, this is a great little console.

Though there are still a few advanced features that I do miss...
1. no snapshot crossfade
2. unable to route the stereo inputs (and EFX returns) to the sub bus. They pretty much set up the sub bus to function as an aux fed sub without tying up one of the 14 auxes, but then left the stereo inputs and EFX returns out of the routing screen to that bus.
3. I wish Aux masters could be assigned to DCAs
4. I really want to be able to control the effects SEND level and not the effects RETURN level.  As it is, the only way to do that is from each individual channel.  All the master levels are post-effect.  I get that this is aimed at newbies and it's easier to understand the return level, but they gave enough flexibility for advanced engineers in other things, just give me flexibility in this too.
5. The options available on the UDKs are a bit limited. Let me assign a specific aux send level to the user defined knob. Let me use a user defined key/button to bring a specific channel's overview to the screen. As it is, the knobs pretty much just do the Gain, EQ, or Dynamics parameters, the buttons are pretty much for snapshot control. They have other, less useful functions too, but seem pretty limited for the really useful functions. Again, I'm sure this was a marketing decision so as to not overload a novice user with options they wouldn't understand.

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