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Author Topic: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?  (Read 12738 times)

Lee Buckalew

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2015, 09:05:54 am »

thanks for the help guys.

Thursday is rehearsal and I have already decided we are going to move the guitar amp to a different location to see if that helps. My more experienced drummer is on this week so that should help me try and get some control.

As has been said, I have done the "turn it down" thing like crazy - I will continue to do so, but I am trying to find other things that would help so that "turn it down" is not the only tool in the tool box.

Dick, thanks and I understand.

I have thought about isolation boxes in the past but had a few problems as our system wasn't quite there to do that well and a few of the monitors were not that great.

I am in the process of making some other changes to fix that and am improving the mains and monitors. I thought controlling some of the sound would be part of the puzzle.

Anybody have any plans for making isolation boxes? If I move them off stage to another room, do I just run an extra long 1/4" cable from the guitarist?

I will also turn everything off in the monitors and add back in as needed.

Fred,
I consistently run into guitar players that use amps that have much higher output level than is required.  When they do this they need to "turn it up" in order to overdrive the amp correctly to achieve the tone they want.  Often good quality lower power amps are far less costly than acoustic treatment.

Lee
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Fred Dorado

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2015, 10:33:09 am »

right now all of our regular guys use the "house" amp... nothing special, I think it is a Marshall valvestate - kind of an all in one - then they bring in their own pedals, guitar etc.

What would be a good option to replace it with? I would bet they might like something with an actual tube in it.

I am open to solutions and could easily make changes in stages. I just don't want to go backwards while doing that.

Fred,
I consistently run into guitar players that use amps that have much higher output level than is required.  When they do this they need to "turn it up" in order to overdrive the amp correctly to achieve the tone they want.  Often good quality lower power amps are far less costly than acoustic treatment.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2015, 10:39:56 am »

right now all of our regular guys use the "house" amp... nothing special, I think it is a Marshall valvestate - kind of an all in one - then they bring in their own pedals, guitar etc.

What would be a good option to replace it with? I would bet they might like something with an actual tube in it.

I am open to solutions and could easily make changes in stages. I just don't want to go backwards while doing that.

Which Valvestate amp from Marshall?

Lee
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2015, 11:20:05 am »

right now all of our regular guys use the "house" amp... nothing special, I think it is a Marshall valvestate - kind of an all in one - then they bring in their own pedals, guitar etc.

What would be a good option to replace it with? I would bet they might like something with an actual tube in it.

I am open to solutions and could easily make changes in stages. I just don't want to go backwards while doing that.

There's one problem. IMO  ::)

I'm assuming the band plays light contemporary Christian music....a Marshall amp would not be my first choice
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 12:06:43 pm by Jamin Lynch »
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Fred Dorado

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2015, 12:22:49 pm »

I just went and checked. It is a Marshall Vavlestate 50



Totally, this is what I think when I look at it.... not about the Martin, just that it looks like a giant horn and acts like one.

I will move some stuff around, unfortunately I don't have any real options with the drums. They need to be in the back row... I might be able to move them to the center, but behind the cross is our baptistry and I am not sure how that impact the view.

I wasn't joking in my first post about it looking as if you were playing in a giant Martin B115.  That speaker approximates an exponential horn but with flat sides - as do the walls of your stage area.  You might find that you have some positions on stage which are at focal points of the shape and project sound more than other areas.  Keeping loud amplifiers out of those areas could make quite a difference.


Steve.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2015, 06:36:41 pm »

I just went and checked. It is a Marshall Vavlestate 50

If this is too loud Marshal makes 5 watt, 15 watt, and 20 watt amps.

Lee
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Kent Thompson

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2015, 04:17:15 pm »

You really did not say what type of mixer you have or if you have the auxes for several in ear mixes but, something like a Presonus HP60 could help out by giving up to 6 people a stereo mix and the ability to add in a signal from their individual instrument. The headphone amp is powerful enough to drive a couple headphones per channel which means you could probably run about 16 headphones off of it in a pinch at a really low price point (this is using up to 3 20' headphone extension in some cases). We did this as a low budget way to get everyone on headphones or earphones. I don't see any musicians that are so mobile they could not use a set of hard wired earphones or headphones in the picture. What you need to do is get leadership on board with the in ears. Convince them that this will make the biggest difference bang for the buck (including getting amps off stage and quieting drums) and have the edict come from the pastor or whoever is in charge of this part of the ministry. No one will argue as much when it comes from the top down. If it becomes necessary down the road you could budget for a couple of wireless in ears for the lead singers. Your mix levels as they are are really being determined by the loudness of your drums. Get those under control and your whole stage level will go down.

We went the electronic drum route at our church because we could not tame the drummer beast. The people in the front row would suffer when they whacked those 1/4 thick cymbals...There was a sacrifice  in doing so but, it was cheaper than buying a drum cage and then dealing with all the phases issues in microphones when you cage the drums. Not to mention we could never get the drummers to tune the drums regularly so I had a talk with leadership and had him sit in front of the drums one Sunday and the next week we found a way to get electronic drums. It did wonders for the clarity of the mix. There was a little sacrifice of potential sound quality (which was never achieved) but, the benefits far outweighed the sacrifices.

You still will have to deal with the acoustical issue of the room but, this could get you a heck of a lot closer.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2015, 05:10:03 pm »

We have a GL2400-24 - 5 mono aux to monitors and 1 for effects

The pastor isn't really big into Edicts and though he is not a musician, he is not a fan of in ears.

drums as a whole aren't the biggest issue - some of the cymbals are... I was told this week that our cymbals are not very good.

I am not sure about electronic drums. I have heard about churches that switch and end up going back. this is one of those things where people will play what we have, so we can make the switch, but have been reluctant. What kind did you get? and how did the drummers feel about the switch?

I will ask some drummer friends how they feel about them.

thanks

You really did not say what type of mixer you have

What you need to do is get leadership on board with the in ears. Convince them that this will make the biggest difference bang for the buck (including getting amps off stage and quieting drums) and have the edict come from the pastor or whoever is in charge of this part of the ministry. No one will argue as much when it comes from the top down. If it becomes necessary down the road you could budget for a couple of wireless in ears for the lead singers. Your mix levels as they are are really being determined by the loudness of your drums. Get those under control and your whole stage level will go down.

We went the electronic drum route at our church because we could not tame the drummer beast. The people in the front row would suffer when they whacked those 1/4 thick cymbals...

 I had a talk with leadership and had him sit in front of the drums one Sunday and the next week we found a way to get electronic drums. It did wonders for the clarity of the mix. There was a little sacrifice of potential sound quality (which was never achieved) but, the benefits far outweighed the sacrifices.

You still will have to deal with the acoustical issue of the room but, this could get you a heck of a lot closer.
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John L Nobile

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2015, 05:29:13 pm »


I am not sure about electronic drums. I have heard about churches that switch and end up going back. this is one of those things where people will play what we have, so we can make the switch, but have been reluctant. What kind did you get? and how did the drummers feel about the switch?

I will ask some drummer friends how they feel about them.

thanks

We went the electronic drum route years ago. Lasted about 3 years and hated it. Went back to real drums. Everyone was much happier. Personally, I never want to work with electronic drums again. I'd rather use tracked drums. Which is what we have been doing for the past few years but next month, we get a real drummer back
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2015, 06:09:28 pm »

We have a GL2400-24 - 5 mono aux to monitors and 1 for effects

The pastor isn't really big into Edicts and though he is not a musician, he is not a fan of in ears.

drums as a whole aren't the biggest issue - some of the cymbals are... I was told this week that our cymbals are not very good.

I am not sure about electronic drums. I have heard about churches that switch and end up going back. this is one of those things where people will play what we have, so we can make the switch, but have been reluctant. What kind did you get? and how did the drummers feel about the switch?

I will ask some drummer friends how they feel about them.

thanks

Most drummers don't like electronic drums due to the way they look. There are electronic drum heads that you can put on real drums that have built in triggers. Real drum look....electronic drum benefits. The audience (which are the people you're trying to please) will thank you.

The other reason for the dislike is most people get cheapies modules with crappy sounds. Please get a good module.

Make sure the module has at least 4 outputs. 1-kick, 1-snare, 1-toms 1&2, 1-floor tom. This will give you individual control and EQ for each output. Electronic drums CAN be made to sound good IF you are willing to spend the time. I know of a couple of churches who use them and are glad they got them.

I try to use acoustic cymbals if possible. You may not be able to in your situation.

Again...In Ear monitors will not lower the stage volume IF there are still loud guitar amps and /or drums on stage. They often times make it worse.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:18:49 pm by Jamin Lynch »
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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2015, 06:09:28 pm »


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